67 years ago today

[crookesey]

General Uruqhart's first airborne divison went in with over 10,000 men came out with less than 3,000.

 

A lot of fine soldiers squandered in an operation that was messed up from the start.

 

Ignoring RAF recce photos showing panzers in area

 

 

Over confidence

 

 

 

Refusal or ignoring Dutch intelligence reports

 

So the blame sits firmly on the shoulders of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, who was that by the way?

[Mecky]

Hear, hear. Such brave men. Well said.

 

I don't think they were brave at all, they were probably scared sh*tless

[Harleyman]

So the blame sits firmly on the shoulders of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, who was that by the way?

 

 

 

Two days ago just by coincidence I finished reading the book "A Bridge too far" by Cornelius Ryan. I suggest you either watch the movie or read the book yourself before we get yet again in another slanging match

 

Operation Market Garden was a Montgomery operation with General Browning in overall charge of carrying it out.

 

It failed due to a combination of bad luck, bad weather and a serious oversight in ignoring vital intelligence reports from the Dutch underground in the Arnhem area as well as refusing to acknowledge that RAF photos distinctly showed German panzer tanks which could not be completely concealed.

 

But I see what your suggesting though.

 

If the Market Garden operation had been a complete success and the end game achieved all the glory would have been Montys

 

On the other hand since it was a failure then it must be all Ike's fault

 

[Harleyman]

I don't think they were brave at all, they were probably scared sh*tless

 

You dont think they were brave? Tell that to any of Colonel Frost's paras who fought to the end to hold the north end of the Arnhem bridge and Captain Mackay's sappers who fought to almost the last man to hold onto their section near Frost's group.

 

Tell that to General Gavin's paras of the 82nd US Airborne who took 50 percent casualties rowing across the Waal under continuous machine gun and artillery fire to capture the bridge at Nijmegen or Polish General Sobowski's paras who were on the second airlift and dropped into the middle of a battlefield that the Germans nicknamed Hell's Cauldron

 

Bravery IS when you're scared sh*tless, know the odds are stacked against you yet fight on regardless.

[Chris_Sleeps]

I don't think they were brave at all, they were probably scared sh*tless

The two things aren't exclusive.

[rabitter]

to be scared to death yet still carry on for your country heroes every one

its because of people like this i live as a free man

[Harleyman]

Every soldier who took part in Market Garden is certainly a hero. The individual acts of courage and self sacrifice during that battle are beyond number

 

I'll even give the Germans the credit they deserve. Many of their soldiers were past active military age or merely youths or were veterans of the Russian front who were badly battle worn and in any other army considered to be medically below grade for active duty yet they too fought bravely and tenaciously and they too were heroes in their own right.

[Annoni_mouse]

Not to detract from the bravery of the Allied airborne forces who took part in Market Garden (most of whom performed brilliantly but were ultimately let down by those in command), we should remember that responsibility for the failure of the operation ultimately rests on the shoulders of Montgomery.

 

His blindness to the intelligence reports and insistance on pressing on with the operation when it was clear it should have been delayed if not cancelled (fuelled in no small part by his egotistical fued with Patton), not only cost the lives of many, many good men but also ensured that the British lost any say in the conduct of the conclusion to the war in Europe, and from that point onward it was the Americans who took on the bulk of the planning for the remainder of the war.

[crookesey]

Two days ago just by coincidence I finished reading the book "A Bridge too far" by Cornelius Ryan. I suggest you either watch the movie or read the book yourself before we get yet again in another slanging match

 

Operation Market Garden was a Montgomery operation with General Browning in overall charge of carrying it out.

 

It failed due to a combination of bad luck, bad weather and a serious oversight in ignoring vital intelligence reports from the Dutch underground in the Arnhem area as well as refusing to acknowledge that RAF photos distinctly showed German panzer tanks which could not be completely concealed.

 

But I see what your suggesting though.

 

If the Market Garden operation had been a complete success and the end game achieved all the glory would have been Montys

 

On the other hand since it was a failure then it must be all Ike's fault

 

 

I have seen the film, and as previously stated, in case you are having literacy problems, I had an uncle who was there, and no I haven't read the book, but have seen many British made documentaries on the subject.

 

Like the other half of the US version of the Chuckle Brothers, everything you post about the UK, takes a sideways swipe at us, but you both profusely object to any counter reference to god's own country, like spoilt kids.

 

For your information none of the allied forces were allowed to break wind without the permission of Dwight D. Eisenhower, who later as president led the US through a very dark period of it's history. JFK came on the scene and switched the lights back on, only to be very cruelly cut down in his prime, as was his younger brother a few years later.

[Halibut]

I don't think they were brave at all, they were probably scared sh*tless

 

 

Bravery IS when you're scared sh*tless, know the odds are stacked against you yet fight on regardless.

 

The two things aren't exclusive.

 

Harleyman and Chris_Sleeps are absolutely correct here Mecky.

Bravery means doing what needs to be done even though you're exhausted, scared, and scared to death.

The men who fought at Arnhem were indeed extremely brave.

I've just read the account written by Lietenant EM Mackay who, starting with fifty men held a school on the wrong side of the bridge for three days on no sleep and little food or water. On the Wednesday morning he writes -

 

'' We drove off three attacks in two hours. The school was now like a sieve. Wherever yu looked you could see daylight. The walls were no longer bulletproof, rubble was piled high on the floors, laths hung down from the ceilings, a fine white dust of plaster covered everything. Splattered everywhere was blood: it lay in pools in the rooms, it covered the smocks of the defenders, and ran in small rivulets down the stairs. The men themselves were the grimmest sight of all: eyes red-rimmed for want of sleep, their faces, blackened by fire fighting, wore three days growth of beard. Many of them had minor wounds, and their clothes were cut away to expose a roughly fixed blood soaked field dressing. They were huddled in twos and threes, each little group manning positions that required twice their number. The only clean things in the school were the weapons. These shone brightly in the morning sun, with their gleaming clips of ammunition beside them. Looking at these men, I realised I should never have to give the order 'These positions will be held to the last round and the last man'. They were conscious of their superiorority. Around them lay four times the number of enemy dead.''