Occupy London - Occupy Protests go global!

[rickiethecat]

What kind of argument is that? The whole point is that we have no say over the economic system we are forced to live under. And as yet there exists no opt out.

 

Of course you can opt out. You could close your bank account, emigrate toa country with a different economic system or go and live on a self-sufficient commune in a remote part of Wales for example.

 

The point is that by using the services banks provide, you are part of the system and are helping provide them with the funds they use to play the markets. That doesn't entitle you to have a say in how they are run any more than shopping at Tesco gives you the right to determine what prices they charge.

[Harleyman]

They were made up of the same, and that is my point. Treating every aspect of modern society as a business is retarded. Especially when the global markets are made up of fictitious numbers that always result in the same thing- an enternity of debt for most of us. I'll say it again it and even go further, the so called modern democracy is NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE!

 

There needs to be more regulation of the the markets. I dont pretend to know how this could be achieved. I leave that to the far more learned and intelligent than I but I'm sure it could be achieved with a bit of effort.

Here's one problem though. Most politicians of any party are in the pockets of the wealthy. This needs to come to an end.

However, putting a bunch of naive anti-capitalistic proletarians in charge wont achieve anything other than complete and utter chaos.

 

We can learn a lot from Germany who seem to do things right. Lets take a few pages from their book for a start

[truman]

We can learn a lot from Germany who seem to do things right.

 

Really? http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iIKDcYh_AoHiU2JQO91dfh9QKvTQ?docId=CNG.ed88dea43c5a08464441621d7db36576.391

[Bulgarian]

We can learn a lot from Germany who seem to do things right. Lets take a few pages from their book for a start

 

And Canada, it's really hard to get credit here, they are ultra cautious.

[Harleyman]

Really? http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iIKDcYh_AoHiU2JQO91dfh9QKvTQ?docId=CNG.ed88dea43c5a08464441621d7db36576.391

 

Germany like all other western countries has naturally felt the effects of the recession. My point is that there's always been a good relationship between unions and corporate management. Common sense has traditionally prevailed on both sides. Their unemployment rate is generally lower than the rest of Europe and their standard of living and wages considerably higher.

Germans dont have a class warfare mentality either

[epiphany]

We can learn a lot from Germany who seem to do things right. Lets take a few pages from their book for a start

 

Good gosh, agreed! We should start by looking at Germany's co-determination laws, which not only help keep the peace between workers and shareholders, but also sees a greater distribution of purchasing power among the working population, which is in turn good for business. These relatively new laws will hopefully lead to a more co-operative and democratic economy.

[jabba25]

Of course you can opt out. You could close your bank account, emigrate toa country with a different economic system or go and live on a self-sufficient commune in a remote part of Wales for example.

 

The point is that by using the services banks provide, you are part of the system and are helping provide them with the funds they use to play the markets. That doesn't entitle you to have a say in how they are run any more than shopping at Tesco gives you the right to determine what prices they charge.

 

I believe I understand where you are coming from, but my argument is this.

I was born into this system and this country. I don't see why I should I run away (despite sometimes thinking it would be easier!). My friends and family are here. I choose to opt out and do so as much as I can, but it is also true that those who wish to maintain the status quo increasingly inhibit that with more and more legislation. I feel I have a duty to point out 'their' illegitimacy as much as possible, despite continually coming face to face with secularism of one kind or another. Whilst we are busy taking chunks out of chavs, benefit cheats/scroungers, this race or that culture, that criminal or this hypocrite then we are not focusing on what is really holding US ALL back.

[Harleyman]

Good gosh, agreed! We should start by looking at Germany's co-determination laws, which not only help keep the peace between workers and shareholders, but also sees a greater distribution of purchasing power among the working population, which is in turn good for business. These relatively new laws will hopefully lead to a more co-operative and democratic economy.

 

Then is it arrogance and a mixture of distrust and resentment of Germany's recent past that stop the rest of Europe and even America from adopting some of Germany's better economic practices?

 

It's not hard to imagine that if the British parliament along with the rest of the Eu members were to consider adopting Germany's co-determination laws the usual dissenters in their blissful ignorance would lose no time in denouncing it as a German takeover of Europe.

 

Then again the German way of thinking is in no way similar to most of the rest of Europe. The Germans learned a very hard and cruel lesson from WW2.

Almost 70 years of having to rise from the ruins and survive and prosper economically have bred that way of thinking into them

[epiphany]

I believe I understand where you are coming from, but my argument is this.

I was born into this system and this country. I don't see why I should I run away (despite sometimes thinking it would be easier!). My friends and family are here. I choose to opt out and do so as much as I can, but it is also true that those who wish to maintain the status quo increasingly inhibit that with more and more legislation. I feel I have a duty to point out 'their' illegitimacy as much as possible, despite continually coming face to face with secularism of one kind or another. Whilst we are busy taking chunks out of chavs, benefit cheats/scroungers, this race or that culture, that criminal or this hypocrite then we are not focusing on what is really holding US ALL back.

 

It depends what you mean by opting out. What is it that Proudhon said? Build the new from within the old (...more profound than that but you get the jist!). The structures of change are already there within the existing economic system, we just have to capitalise and empower the right institutions, "vote" for them with our feet and our money. Easier said than done, I know, but to me opting out isn't going to change a thing.

 

It reminds me of people not bothering to vote simply because they don't see any point.

 

I may have completely misinterpreted your position but there we go.

[TeaFan]

Of course you can opt out. You could close your bank account, emigrate toa country with a different economic system or go and live on a self-sufficient commune in a remote part of Wales for example.

 

But since it's not allowed to build on common land, this commune would need to be on private land which would need to be paid for. And the building would need to be paid for. And if it was a new building you would have to pay the state and get the state's permission to build it. It would be liable for council tax to the state. If you had children the state would make you send them to school. It's not possible to opt out. For a system that believes itself to be superior to all possible alternatives, capitalism allows very little opportunity to test alternatives out.

 

As for emigrating to a country with a different economic system - Bhutan is still feudal, pretty much everywhere else is capitalist just with differing levels of market liberalism.

 

The Occupy protests are inspiring and welcome but the really important and interesting one is Greece. Capitalism has failed most Greeks; the 'solutions' that keep them within capitalism - massive wage cuts, massive unemployment, defaulting - are not solutions at all. They have a clear choice, either stick with capitalism and suffer real poverty for generations or try something else.