donkey Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Now who is talking tosh? To suggest people who simply don't want the state meddling in how they bring up their children are unconcerned by child abuse is nothing but a smear. It's not about the state 'meddling', unless you consider the state is already meddling by outlawing various types of abuse and neglect within the family. A lot of hitting of children is done in an abusive way. To enshrine the right to hit in law enables abusers to continue. After all, who is going to keep records documenting how many times individual parents hit their kids, how hard and for what reasons? The people who feel hitting is a parent's right? I doubt it. There is no-one policing the fine line between discipline and child abuse, but this doesn't seem to be a consideration for some people, so it is fair to say that those people seem more concerned about the right to hit children, than they are about the rights of children not to be physically abused. That is not a slander, it is a resonable conclusion to logically arrive at. And it is certainly not the same thing as claiming parents who want hitting to be legal are 'unconcerned by child abuse' which is what you accused me of but not what I said at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrod Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It's not about the state 'meddling', unless you consider the state is already meddling by outlawing various types of abuse and neglect within the family. A lot of hitting of children is done in an abusive way. To enshrine the right to hit in law enables abusers to continue. After all, who is going to keep records documenting how many times individual parents hit their kids, how hard and for what reasons? The people who feel hitting is a parent's right? I doubt it. There is no-one policing the fine line between discipline and child abuse, but this doesn't seem to be a consideration for some people, so it is fair to say that those people seem more concerned about the right to hit children, than they are about the rights of children not to be physically abused. That is not a slander, it is a resonable conclusion to logically arrive at. And it is certainly not the same thing as claiming parents who want hitting to be legal are 'unconcerned by child abuse' which is what you accused me of but not what I said at all. Parents who use corporal punishment in reasonable measure will probably desist as a result in new legislation. Do you think abusive parents will avoid abusing their kids because a new law says hitting is illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Parents who use corporal punishment in reasonable measure will probably desist as a result in new legislation. Do you think abusive parents will avoid abusing their kids because a new law says hitting is illegal? It won't totally stop them, they won't do it in public, they'll just do it when they get home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkey Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Parents who use corporal punishment in reasonable measure will probably desist as a result in new legislation. On the other hand, the parents who have the judgement and detachment to only ever hit their kids appropriately - as part of a consistent strategy with clear goals and no mixed messages - would neccessarily be the same ones who had the intelligience and emotional maturity to effectively achieve the same results using other methods. There is no evidence to suggest smacking is a particularly effective way to teach children acceptable behaviour. From what I've seen out and about, it is most often used by parents who have been unable to provide good role models with consistent messages and discipline, who use hitting as a last resort 'fire fighting' method to regain temporary control and relieve their frustration. Do you think abusive parents will avoid abusing their kids because a new law says hitting is illegal? No, but it would be much more difficult for them to do it openly without being reported, which is what happens at the moment. There is a strong culture of acceptance of violence towards children, which has been gradually weakening for at least 100 years, but hasn't gone a way. I would see the outlawing of smacking as a good trade off, leading in the long term to a greater degree of awareness and intolerance of child abuse with little or no effect on discipline, which comes down to consistency, and the thought and effort put in. Not the exact methods used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister M Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 My Bold. And that's the problem, the kids hit back, and that's where the violence starts, the kid is punished by a slap, the kid slaps his Dad back, the Dad punishes him for hitting back, where does it all end? Good point Rich. What I find horrible is seeing parents or older siblings and friends constantly swearing at or humiliating other children. When I lived in Leeds I used to see this quite a lot - in supermarkets and round town. Part of me wishes those children would hit back, but their self confidence must be so diminished that they can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTM_1983 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I dont think there is anything wrong with tapping a childs bottom. I would never do it regularly and never that hard that the skin would be red. A gentle tap. All the kids in my family have had a mixture of tapped bottoms, grounded, things taken off them etc... And all have grown up very well, polite, respectful adults. Some now have children of there own and are brought up the same, all doing well in school, confident and polite kids. I agree. I was raised with the odd tap on the back of my hand/legs and it never did me any harm, in fact it made me realise what I had done was wrong and so I didnt do it again - - therefore lesson was learnt. IMO children now often have too much and don't understand the value of it so when they are 'punished' they still have access to a whole load of gadgets as a lot of parents will ground them but not take away all these things to make it a real punishment. As for children hitting parents back again that shows the lack of respect children have these days. if my mum smacked me when i was young i would never have dreamed of hitting her back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy Jnr Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Will it change the way they behave in society at present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 When you say no to a child you have to assume that the child understands "no" in the same way as you do. A small child is an empty vessel and devoid of any understanding of the consequences of its actions in the same and adult understands them. What children do respond to is pain and an accompanying word. It's a process..smack accompanied by "no". As the child develops the "no" can be better explained and the "smack" can be dis-guarded. If it continues then there may be other issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manofstrad Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 It's a Kantian argument, nothing to do with left or right. No need to even bring politics into it. I get real tired of party politics on here. It ain't half dull. I totally agree with you Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Sleeps Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Fine line was correct though. It is being put forward by four AMs. Four? Wooh, a real coup. To suggest people [...] are unconcerned by child abuse is nothing but a smear. No more of a smear than 'Labour are on a mission to destroy family values'. If one is a gross generalisation then the other is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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