What has religion done for women.

[Agbus]

Eh? I never mentioned love, that's all bound up with deity. What I was saying is that everyone should have a fair chance, if people fall down (or fail) due to lack of ability then so be it. However, they should not be disallowed that chance on the basis of what they are rather nor failed on any other grounds other than the appropriate criteria. Surely that is not too much to ask for?

 

No, its not.

 

The trouble is nepotism, the old school network, who you know and the silver spoon brigade. No you are right life is not fair and it never will be and regardless of anything you can think of, people will always look after their own.

 

[skinz]

No, its not.

 

The trouble is nepotism, the old school network, who you know and the silver spoon brigade. No you are right life is not fair and it never will be and regardless of anything you can think of, people will always look after their own.

 

Yes..but what has that to do with equality? You're describing selfishness.

 

As for the old boy network you couldn't get any more "old boy" than the church who will protect at the cost of it's own faith.

[Suffragette1]

Yes..but what has that to do with equality? You're describing selfishness.

 

As for the old boy network you couldn't get any more "old boy" than the church who will protect at the cost of it's own faith.

 

Quite, well said. It must be the biggest old boys' network in the world.

[Agbus]

Yes..but what has that to do with equality? You're describing selfishness.

 

As for the old boy network you couldn't get any more "old boy" than the church who will protect at the cost of it's own faith.

 

I'm not sure the things I describe are selfishness? Giving someone a leg up in life is not being selfish.

 

If selfishness reigns supreme there can never be equality because for that to happen there needs to be give and take?

[Agbus]

Quite, well said. It must be the biggest old boys' network in the world.

 

The thing about equality is treating everyone equally which is what you were asking for yourself. Have you had a hard day?

[gularscute]

And that's a problem because... ?

 

...if that is the case, it means religious authorities are dictating what choices a woman has over her own body. That wouldn't be a problem because... ?

[Bassman62]

hilarious. What was Augustine's take on women?

You tell us what your take is, it was your religion that treat women digustingly

[Rushup]

As for equality, yes, again, Qur'anic Islam does give rights to women. In Quranic (as opposed to 'Cultural') Islam, women are given the right to vote, to own property, to conduct business, to be educated, to reject an unsuitable marriage partner.

 

There are of course various passages in the Koran which present a liberal tone; it is unfortunate these are offset with many less enlightened moments. Having waded my way through the Koran one of the major issues, aside from the characteristic lack of imagination which seemingly blights all religious texts, is that it contradicts itself many times – sometimes in the same Surah. It is worth remembering this book is a collection of what is supposedly the very utterances of God quoted verbatim; if that is the case it appears that despite being an omnipotent and omniscient power who has already decided the destiny of everyone, God changes his mind quite a lot. Fortunately when God changes his mind things seem to work out pretty well for Muhammed. Another annoying trait of the Koran is how God continually switches between first, second and third person and refers to himself as 'He' – third person, which suggests two things: first, that Muhammed decided the word of God wasn't good enough and has added content from his own perspective; second, that God isn't much of a writer.

 

But I digress... Concerning the rights of women in Islam, it is better for me to step aside and let the Koran do the talking:

 

 

4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

 

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge* them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

*Scourge in this sense means 'whip' or 'lash' or 'flog'.

 

 

Recently I read these passages to a Muslim friend – we both enjoy healthy debate. When I pointed out that a logical interpretation of these texts is that God is fine with the idea of taking women as slaves, and that men are superior to women, his sole defence was that I was quoting out of context and incapable of understanding as I a happen not to be Muslim. I've heard this kind of get-out clause before; it's at once patronising and infantile. Therefore rather than quote any more at length it is worth having a read of Surah 4, 'An-Nisa' or 'The Women', in its entirety.

 

At the risk of coming across as anti-Islamic, I have similar criticisms of Christianity – itself with its share of equally abhorrent dogmatic beliefs – and view all religions as intellectually dishonest.

[Baz1]

There are of course various passages in the Koran which present a liberal tone; it is unfortunate these are offset with many less enlightened moments. Having waded my way through the Koran one of the major issues, aside from the characteristic lack of imagination which seemingly blights all religious texts, is that it contradicts itself many times – sometimes in the same Surah. It is worth remembering this book is a collection of what is supposedly the very utterances of God quoted verbatim; if that is the case it appears that despite being an omnipotent and omniscient power who has already decided the destiny of everyone, God changes his mind quite a lot. Fortunately when God changes his mind things seem to work out pretty well for Muhammed. Another annoying trait of the Koran is how God continually switches between first, second and third person and refers to himself as 'He' – third person, which suggests two things: first, that Muhammed decided the word of God wasn't good enough and has added content from his own perspective; second, that God isn't much of a writer.

 

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to themself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. They may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur'an, where God addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.

 

But I digress... Concerning the rights of women in Islam, it is better for me to step aside and let the Koran do the talking:

 

 

4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

 

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge* them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

*Scourge in this sense means 'whip' or 'lash' or 'flog'.

 

 

Recently I read these passages to a Muslim friend – we both enjoy healthy debate. When I pointed out that a logical interpretation of these texts is that God is fine with the idea of taking women as slaves, and that men are superior to women, his sole defence was that I was quoting out of context and incapable of understanding as I a happen not to be Muslim. I've heard this kind of get-out clause before; it's at once patronising and infantile. Therefore rather than quote any more at length it is worth having a read of Surah 4, 'An-Nisa' or 'The Women', in its entirety.

 

At the risk of coming across as anti-Islamic, I have similar criticisms of Christianity – itself with its share of equally abhorrent dogmatic beliefs – and view all religions as intellectually dishonest.

 

It is often common that these verses are misinterpreted- as far as I have looked in to it, the Quran does not sanction slave taking but in fact freeing of slaves (when slavery was prevalent- as well as being something which pre-dated Islam)- this is a deep topic but can be easily cleared up with proper checks.

 

But I fail to see why a Muslim needs to justify his/her religion in the first place- when one is talking of what is held as belief from the Quranic texts.

 

Al Nisa is a chapter dedicated to women- something not seen in any other religion as far as I am aware. If Islam was so insensitive or unfair to women you would not have so many converts, let alone young educated Muslim girls, who have accepted that their religion does not tarnish or isolate them.

 

What is unfortunate is many perceive Islam as being negative towards simply on seeing how they are treated in some Muslim countries- Iran often springs to mind as does Afganistan. However, that is nothing to do with Islam- people automatically think ISLAM= bad.

 

Ask any Muslim woman in the West if she feels Islam hinders her or gives her a second class status, and I would be surprised if she said yes.

 

Your friend is right on the basis that you do need to understand the context of the verse and also, although open to interpretation (so many things are in life) majority of Muslim theologians do carefully try to construct meaning based on understanding Quran via the statements of Muhammad- which will also prevent contradictions where women are concerned (e.g. when one starts to assume Islam allows wife beating- as many verses as well as statements from Muhammad, show this is not the case).

 

Finally, I have not seen any contradictions in the Quran- if you wish to point them out genuinely and honestly want to try to get some clarification, I would be happy to try and explain if I can.

[peewee84]

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge* them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

*Scourge in this sense means 'whip' or 'lash' or 'flog'

 

when one starts to assume Islam allows wife beating- as many verses as well as statements from Muhammad, show this is not the case).

 

Finally, I have not seen any contradictions in the Quran- if you wish to point them out genuinely and honestly want to try to get some clarification, I would be happy to try and explain if I can.

 

So could you explain your interpretation of the quote in bold to us please? I'm genuinely interested...