What has religion done for women.

[Bassman62]

hilarious. What was Augustine's take on women?

What are 'Right Hand Posesssions'?

[Baz1]

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge* them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

*Scourge in this sense means 'whip' or 'lash' or 'flog'

 

 

 

So could you explain your interpretation of the quote in bold to us please? I'm genuinely interested...

 

Well, first of all, it won't be MY interpretation but done so on the basis of the classical Arabic language as was spoken at the time the Quran was being revealed.

 

Also it is important to know the Quran (or any Islamic text) does categorically forbid any form of violence to anyone other than in self defence or a just cause.

 

I don't usually like to quote verses after verses but since this is in defence of the Quran and women, I will need to.

 

So, lets start with a verse that clearly sets a pattern as to how women need to be handled (note- please understand pre Islamic Arabia was extremely unfair to women and girls would even be buried alive):

 

Nor should ye treat them with harshness that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good

This is from the same chapter of The Women.

 

Now, going to the verse you quoted and was quoted before, you have to realize which women these verses are talking about. These are 'nashez' women (actual word used is 'nushuz'). It does not have an exact English translation, but was basically translated as disloyalty and ill-conduct- which is not very accurate. One of the great commentators of the Quran, Ibn Kathir, said it was a grave thing-something that would lead to divorce.

 

But the Quran points out certain steps to deal with these type of situations. Hence :

1.admonish them

But if she didn't amend/repent herself

2.refuse to share their beds (i.e corporal separation)

If she didn't amend/repent herself,

3.(and last) beat them (lightly).

 

Now, what one needs to know is that women have been treated in many forms over the hundreds of years and even women today have had to fight to get to their so called 'equality'.

 

In Islam, many rights were given straight away and cruelty to them was forbidden- as I stated before, pre Islamic Arabia was a nightmare for them.

 

The Quran (again in chapter 4) reads:

mutual love and kindness. Allah says:

 

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

 

Islam is a way of life- it does not make the lives of its followers hard if they wish to follow the simple commands layed out by it and the authentic statements of Muhammad- who was the best to his wives (you can check any good Islamic web for this information). The wives of Muhammad are classed as 'mothers of the believers' and hence have high reverence in Islam (as does Mary, mother of Jesus amongst others).

 

If you want a simple take on the verse you posted, you could also know that man is generally the stronger sex and in Islam he is seen as the protector of his family- I am married for 16 years and my wife and kids are under my care- they feel protected and I am responsible for her and the kids in that they have food, clothes, a roof and treated well etc.

 

Now, if I came across a situation that my wife was acting in dishonesty, ill conduct, I would work towards correcting things. But i know this would never happen as she is one who would not put herself in any situation to weaken herself- its why it is in the West (in general) you have high levels of adultery and divorce compared to Muslim countries. Again, this verse come to light as the man is the protector and guardian- he should ensure his wife does not mix in with the wrong people (as he himself should also be likewise). It is in the West where you have higher levels of violence against women as well as rape- you can check stats on amnesty/nationmaster.

 

In Islam the woman owns all her assets, she needs not to spend a penny of her wealth as her husband is there for her- and if there is no husband, (if she is not married) it is the father, or brother or uncle- the honour of woman in Islam is massive.

 

I have two daughters and will always teach them how important a role they have as daughters, and future wives/mothers. That under Islam they are honoured- despite what some women have to live under when you have dictatorships running countries like Iran/Pakistan etc. There is no Islamic state today.

 

-this was a long post and don't know if covered what you wanted to know but that is all I am saying on the matter- I recommend you go to a good Islamic website if you wish to know more honestly.

[1love]

There are of course various passages in the Koran which present a liberal tone; it is unfortunate these are offset with many less enlightened moments. Having waded my way through the Koran one of the major issues, aside from the characteristic lack of imagination which seemingly blights all religious texts, is that it contradicts itself many times – sometimes in the same Surah. It is worth remembering this book is a collection of what is supposedly the very utterances of God quoted verbatim; if that is the case it appears that despite being an omnipotent and omniscient power who has already decided the destiny of everyone, God changes his mind quite a lot. Fortunately when God changes his mind things seem to work out pretty well for Muhammed. Another annoying trait of the Koran is how God continually switches between first, second and third person and refers to himself as 'He' – third person, which suggests two things: first, that Muhammed decided the word of God wasn't good enough and has added content from his own perspective; second, that God isn't much of a writer.

 

But I digress... Concerning the rights of women in Islam, it is better for me to step aside and let the Koran do the talking:

 

 

4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

 

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge* them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

*Scourge in this sense means 'whip' or 'lash' or 'flog'.

 

 

Recently I read these passages to a Muslim friend – we both enjoy healthy debate. When I pointed out that a logical interpretation of these texts is that God is fine with the idea of taking women as slaves, and that men are superior to women, his sole defence was that I was quoting out of context and incapable of understanding as I a happen not to be Muslim. I've heard this kind of get-out clause before; it's at once patronising and infantile. Therefore rather than quote any more at length it is worth having a read of Surah 4, 'An-Nisa' or 'The Women', in its entirety.

 

At the risk of coming across as anti-Islamic, I have similar criticisms of Christianity – itself with its share of equally abhorrent dogmatic beliefs – and view all religions as intellectually dishonest.

 

Surah Al-Nisa (4:34)

 

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

 

read carefully.

 

Can i ask you where you got ur quote from?

[janie48]

is it only the muslim religion that doesnt treat women as equals. i don't think so.

hope st peter treats me as an equal when i get to the pearly gates.

[Bassman62]

Also it is important to know the Quran (or any Islamic text) does categorically forbid any form of violence to anyone other than in self defence or a just cause.

That's like saying how long is a piece of string

Stoning is violence, would you call stoning for adultry a just cause.

How much more violent and barbaric can you get.

[Bassman62]

is it only the muslim religion that doesnt treat women as equals. i don't think so.

hope st peter treats me as an equal when i get to the pearly gates.

Some other religions don't treat women as equals but as far as I know none of them can overule the law of the land which in some countries Islam can and does.

In some muslim countries a female rape victim is punished for adultry, in others a female rape victim needs a certain number of witnesses to rape, I believe that in Pakistan this is the case also.

[RootsBooster]

In some muslim countries a female rape victim is punished for adultry, in others a female rape victim needs a certain number of witnesses to rape, I believe that in Pakistan this is the case also.

 

What does that have to do with religion? Is this in accordance with some religious text somewhere?

[Bassman62]

What does that have to do with religion? Is this in accordance with some religious text somewhere?

All these bestial acts take place in Muslim countries.

Like demands for the execution of a British teacher for calling a pig Mohamed.

Has the women in Pakistan been executed yet, she was sentenced to death by a Mulsim court.

[upinwath]

 

Any examples?

 

Protection.

An example. In a non-religious society, shagging around and having loads of kids to blokes a lass only met once while smashed is acceptable.

 

In most religions the family is important and that sort of stuff isn't on.

That leaves a stable family unit and that's generally better for the woman and any kids.

It's sometimes less than perfect but generally better.

 

That lack of mega bonking also limits STDs of whatever type so women (and men) are protected from them.

[upinwath]

All these bestial acts take place in Muslim countries..

 

While street dogging tends to take place in civilised countries.

 

 

Like demands for the execution of a British teacher for calling a pig Mohamed.

.

 

Best link to that story. I don't recall it and would hate to suggest you're a liar and an idiot who needs to make things up to support a cretinous political ideal until you fail to support your claim.