HeadingNorth Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Yes it is unfathomable. No it hasn't been fathomed, and scientists reached their conclusion by firstly applying logic, then acknowledging that logic doesn't apply. Logic does apply. It is logic which tells us that not all things which exist have a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I don't accept your premise. Taken from this website. Have a quick read. That makes sense. In no way does it conclude that the universe has no cause though, it only speculates on it. The "no cause" theory only applies because logical reasoning dictates that we accept that logical answers don't apply to this question. I'm not saying logical reasoning hasn't been applied, I'm saying that you can only construct a "no cause" theory by accepting that the premise of the "no cause" theory is illogical. So, what's plausible about "no cause" theories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Logic does apply. It is logic which tells us that not all things which exist have a cause.The bible tells us that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The "no cause" theory only applies because logical reasoning dictates that we accept that logical answers don't apply to this question.I'm not saying logical reasoning hasn't been applied, I'm saying that you can only construct a "no cause" theory by accepting that the premise of the "no cause" theory is illogical. You appear to be resorting to gibberish. Logical reasoning, by definition, give us a logical answer. Maybe we should go back to square one. Either, all things which exist must have a cause, or, things can exist without having a cause. Will you at least accept that much as true? Or is there some third option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 danot.. What do you believe the state of the universes is, finite or infinite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0742Sheff Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's plausible to believe nothing can exist without cause or reason. It's implausible to believe all of creation exists without cause or reason simply because scientists are unable to offer a better explanation other than the creationist argument. Kinda how i feel about the whole subject. Sooner or later you have no choice but to except that something can exist without cause or creator. No we don't. It's human nature to ask questions and to strive for answers. If an implausible theory checks out by following a process of thorough scientific vigour, and this is also thoroughly reviewed by a group of respected peers, the implausible theory becomes a lot less implausible. The creation argument, cannot be proved or disproved, as it is a faith. You don't have to know that God exists, and you don't have to try to disprove scientific theories, it is enough to believe that God created the Universe. That should be enough for true believers. Scientists don't subscribe to faith though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I accept that as being the case, but do you? Yes I fully accept that there is nothing I could say that will give you the ability to understand, lack of understanding is nothing to be ashamed of. I don’t understand many of the things that shape and change the universe but I do understand that it can exist without cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sax99uk Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 My tv went bang, that's not meaningless.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Originally Posted by MrSmith Sooner or later you have no choice but to except that something can exist without cause or creator. No we don't. It's human nature to ask questions and to strive for answers. I suppose there is a third option, if everything that exists must have a cause or reason to exist, then the universe was created or caused by something that didn't exist. That solves the Infinite regressive loop problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcspb1 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 This mind of mine doesn't mind much of anything... It's often bizarre, how the human mind works, and more bizarrely, the myriad of thoughts that provoke my memories, and challenge how we, I and you, perceive things... What if we (inside the universe (The Box) as we know it) are 'Schrodingers cat? We are alive and dead at the same time - ie: we exist, but then again - we don't. We, and the universe both exist - yet don't exist at the same time. Outside our box, there may have been billions of big bangs, resulting in billions of realities, where in those realities, people similar to us (well, actually us in fact) are debating this in the same vein, on the same, yet differing blogs and fora? My point before I start yelling wubble, and being trussed in the strait jacket is this: There may have been a billion big bangs. Each of those may have created an expanded universe. Each of those expanded universes may be identical, conversely, they may not. We might be having this conversation a billion times over with the same result, or we may be having this conversation a billion times with different results. The key to the answer that we will never know the truth about is in the observance. We inside our box, observe our reality, because that is all we know. We do not know what is outside the box, because we can't observe it, so it is incredible to us to comprehend the existance of anything outside our known universe, or the existance of anything before we were placed in our box. Of course, observing this reality like this, does lend towards us being placed in the box in the first place, which would infer to us in our known reality that something would have to have existed in order to place us in the box... Truth is, I don't care what came before the big bang, it's not going to change my existance - I wouldn't want to live forever, I quite like my ever decreasing circle - nor would I want to slip between the universes to see how green their grass is. I'm happy with my lot here, how it already is to me. I like my life, you probably like yours. Next time around though, I want to wake up, be born into a world without politics or religion, and maybe with a lifetimes' health on my side. Part Deux What about if 'We' don't exist at all, but 'I' do? Maybe there is only me, and you are figments of my story, of the trip I'm on? Or maybe there is only you, and I am a figment of your imagination... Perhaps everything as either I or you do in life, everything we see, hear, touch, taste, & smell, doesn't exist in any physical medium, but in a virtual way, maybe 'We' are just energy, materialised by that energy into something that energy recognises... The big bang never happened, our energy simply justifies it, as we are accustomed to believe through evolution that there is a beginning to everything, and that everything is finite. I say it never happened, and I'm right, but, if I don't exist, and you do, maybe it did happen, and you are right. If I get in my spaceboat, and travel faster than a billion times the speed of light, will I get to the edge of the universe in the equivalent of 20 billion earth years, bang into it, get off the boat - climb up the steps, and walk through the door into an alternate reality where my existance to that point has been an entertainment show in a parallel universe? (a la Truman Show?) or when I bang into the very edge of the universe, will it spark a reaction, creating another big bang, which then expands into yet another universe.... The argument goes on... There is no answer, because there is no logical question. I'm off now to get fitted into my new strait jacket - climb in the white van, and travel into no existance, couple of pencils up my nose, underpants on my head, and muttering 'Wubble' (old trick I learned in the Sudan...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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