Bassman62 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I suppose there is a third option, if everything that exists must have a cause or reason to exist, then the universe was created or caused by something that didn't exist. That solves the Infinite regressive loop problem.Yes, profit is usualy the reason, Halloween night, happy birthday from my dog to your dog cards etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Yes, profit is usualy the reason, Halloween night, happy birthday from my dog to your dog cards etc etc. Bassman have you got your glasses on because I think you may be on the wrong thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Bassman have you got your glasses on because I think you may be on the wrong thread. Good point Mr Smith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 pcspb1 isn’t the universe defined as being all existing matter so although it is likely that there have been infinite big bangs and there are infinite collections of matter just like our visible universe they all exist in one universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Getting back to the OP, rather than this repetitive Big Bang, Gnab Gib discussion ... It's interesting that stars can create complex organic matter quickly and in very large amounts, spewing the stuff into interstellar space; organic matter that was previously thought to only to arise from living organisms. Researchers in Hong Kong claim to have discovered complex organic molecules created by stars in the Orion Nebula - Prof. Sun Kwok and Dr. Yong Zhang of The University of Hong Kong have made the groundbreaking discovery that much of the previously unexplained organic matter that floats between the stars is startlingly more complex than previously thought. Some of the structures are actually so complex that they resemble coal and petroleum, the kinds of organic matter we have previously only associated with, well, organisms. It kind of turns the idea of “organic matter” on its head. If that weren’t enough, theses stars are not only generating complex organic matter, but they are doing it on the scale of weeks. And on top of that, they are essentially ejecting it into interstellar space. Just think about that for a minute: The stars are filling up space with complex organic matter. It’s not a particularly easy idea to accept, though Kwok has previously proposed the idea that stars produce organic compounds. “Our work has shown that stars have no problem making complex organic compounds under near-vacuum conditions,” he says, “Theoretically, this is impossible, but observationally we can see it happening.” I think that the building blocks for life have been dropping onto the earth since it's beginning, with stuff like water and methane arriving with comets, and all the complex 'organic' (need to revise that definition now!) molecules building up during the late heavy bombardment. If it's not implausible for life to emerge here on earth, then it's not implausible that it emerged elsewhere and arrived here as fully formed spores or microorganisms. But as I understand it, all life on earth has a common ancestor, meaning either all of it is "alien" or none of it is. (and what the hell is wrong with infinite regression? It's only our brains that can't handle it '- it's not illogical, doesn't contravene any 'laws of nature'. Logic too, is highly overrated and is non-existent outside of our consciousness. Logic doesn't 'exist' and as a closed formal system is always incomplete. Cause and effect are characteristics of the human time-bound consciousness, not of the multiverse.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 You appear to be resorting to gibberish. Logical reasoning, by definition, give us a logical answer.Not in this case, as a universe without cause debate will always steer logical reasoning into the realms of impossibility. Posted by HeadingNorth Maybe we should go back to square one. Either, all things which exist must have a cause, or, things can exist without having a cause. Will you at least accept that much as true? Or is there some third option? Do you not see the contradiction in those statements? You've already said that logical reasoning will always cause the creator without cause argument to fall into the infinite regressive loop, now you're saying that logical reasoning proves that things can exist without having a cause. Which one is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Not in this case, as a universe without cause debate will always steer logical reasoning into the realms of impossibility. Do you not see the contradiction in those statements? You've already said that logical reasoning will always cause the creator without cause argument to fall into the infinite regressive loop, now you're saying that logical reasoning proves that things can exist without having a cause. Which one is it? What's your stated position on the origin of the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 danot.. What do you believe the state of the universes is, finite or infinite? Define- "state of the universe". What is the universe? How much do we understand about the observable universe? What proportion of the universe is observable? what proportion of it are we unaware of? I can't possibly answer that, stop being silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Yes I fully accept that there is nothing I could say that will give you the ability to understand, lack of understanding is nothing to be ashamed of. I don’t understand many of the things that shape and change the universe but I do understand that it can exist without cause. No!, you only understand the rules of logical reasoning used to reach that conclusion. You don't understand how the universe can exists without cause, how could you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 What's your stated position on the origin of the universe?It's way beyond the conceit of human comprehension. That's my position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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