danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Where in my post did I say that the singularity was caused by magic? You didn't. But by definition, it's a kind of magic isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 You didn't. But by definition, it's a kind of magic isn't it? Magic, as in something we cannot understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Magic, as in something we cannot understand?Of course, I don't envisage a top hat spewing out matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Of course, I don't envisage a top hat spewing out matter. It's a bad choice of words then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'm not being daft. What existed before the big bang? The universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 But you're neglecting to mention that argument one has two variable possibilities . One A: If things can exist without cause, then we're done. The universe can exist without cause. There's nothing to discuss. One B: If things can exist without cause, the creator could exist without cause. Would you care to discuss?. The second of those is not a variant of the first. It's case three; invoking a Creator to explain the Universe's existence, which is unnecessary because you've already accepted that things do not have to have a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's a bad choice of words then. magic: Definition "The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious powers or supernatural forces". What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The second of those is not a variant of the first. It's case three; invoking a Creator to explain the Universe's existence, which is unnecessary because you've already accepted that things do not have to have a cause.The second variant becomes unnecessary only when you accept that all of creation must have sprang into existence without cause or reason. As Iv'e said many times before- I don't believe in the biblical God, but I strongly believe that there's an entity at work that's far greater than myself. Some refer to this entity as God, whereas I refer to it as nature/creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The second variant becomes unnecessary only when you accept that all of creation must have sprang into existence without cause or reason. As Iv'e said many times before- I don't believe in the biblical God, but I strongly believe that there's an entity at work that's far greater than myself. Some refer to this entity as God, whereas I refer to it as nature/creation. Why do you think there as to be a creator but think the creator doesn’t need a creator? And if you can accept that the creator doesn’t need a creator why can’t you accept that the universe doesn’t need a creator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Why do you think there as to be a creator but think the creator doesn’t need a creator? And if you can accept that the creator doesn’t need a creator why can’t you accept that the universe doesn’t need a creator? I haven't actually claimed that either of the two could exist without a creator. What I've been doing is demonstrating why 'the "no cause" theory is no more plausible than the creationist argument'. I can't comprehend the cause of either of them, which has been my position all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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