epiphany Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 Are you serious, they'll have never heard of 'im... Likely true, and although I don't consider myself an anarchist, it annoys me that these thugs only serve to reaffirm the misunderstanding that all anarchism is about tearing down the current order through violence and destruction. What amuses me (yes I am easily amused) is the thought of both anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-collectivists working together to abolish the current system, raising the black flag and then fighting each other in the rubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey19 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Don't we have a party with socialist ideology already.....The Labour Party. If the present capitalist way is wrong for the working class they should be the ones formulating positive and practical plans for change. If not why bother having the present Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love_rat Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Last night's Question Time once again highlighted the pure ignorance and myopia of certain politicians when it comes to the true grievances of many protesters on both the left and right. The absurdity of the Starbucks argument - that you are a hypocrite if you protest the current system whilst on a caffeine rush from a coffee purchased at Starbucks - is revealed when you observe that there are pro-capitalists speaking out against the very same system. How can this be? Simply because free market capitalists, whether or not you agree with them ideologically, believe in the clear separation of state and private power as a primary means of protecting society from the failings of the market. The system we have today socialises the risk of large institutions, many of which are subsidised and granted numerous legal privileges by the State, and puts an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer to prop up poorly run businesses that would have failed and been liquidated into the marketplace under a free market capitalist system. Pro-capitalists also agree that, if a bailout is to be made, it should be direct to the people affected - not the institutions who took the risk in the marketplace and FAILED. So if you do defend capitalism, I question why you do not align yourself more with the key issues raised by the protesters, because they ultimately want the same parasitic elements removed from the system as anyone who believes in a fair and free market. Some of the protesters may take it a step further, but ask them what their true issues are with the current system and they will put aside their ideological differences. Perhaps it's time to re-read Adam Smith and his negative views on what is now referred to as corporatism. Many of these protesters are not exactly without a bob or two. Many return to a leafy suburb to snuggle up and keep warm for the night in a cosy bed. I would be happy for the riot police to go in full force to rid our streets from these hypocritical scum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Don't we have a party with socialist ideology already.....The Labour Party. The Labour party abandoned socialism when it became clear that the British public were never going to be fooled into voting for it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuy Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Many of these protesters are not exactly without a bob or two. Many return to a leafy suburb to snuggle up and keep warm for the night in a cosy bed. I would be happy for the riot police to go in full force to rid our streets from these hypocritical scum You obviously didn't actually read the post you are responding too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 So if you do defend capitalism, I question why you do not align yourself more with the key issues raised by the protestersBecause they are grievances, not solutions. I'd quite like a Pragmatist Party to emerge sometime soon. No political bias (as such), just hands-on engineer-like 'this is the problem' 'this is the most likely solution' 'get to it', and the utmost (candid, some will say) transparency about Gvt liabilities, present and future, warts and all. So people understand the why, what and how of the solutions, rather than be continually spoon-fed clichés and vague statements of goals. Which solutions might include public service haircuts, financial markets policing, interventionism, nationalisations...etc, irrespective of (left/right) 'ideology'. And sod the naysayers, the protesters, the media, any vested interests, etc. - currently, they all contribute to the problem, not the solution. (I am aware this all sounds vaguely utopian and/or dictatorial ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I can't help but wonder if some of them only THINK they are outright anti-capitalist, when in fact they are merely anti-"actually existing capitalism". In other words, the same misunderstanding of what constitutes free market capitalism exists on both sides of the debate. Nice post. What they should be complaining about is the state of the system as it stands. It's clear that a capitalist system, or a system containing elements of is best and most of the protesters if they stepped back and thought about it would understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiphany Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 The Labour party abandoned socialism when it became clear that the British public were never going to be fooled into voting for it again. Or at least their interpretation of it, because that's all it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiphany Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 Because they are grievances, not solutions. I'd quite like a Pragmatist Party to emerge sometime soon. No political bias (as such), just hands-on engineer-like 'this is the problem' 'this is the most likely solution' 'get to it', and the utmost (candid, some will say) transparency about Gvt liabilities, present and future, warts and all. So people understand the why, what and how of the solutions, rather than be continually spoon-fed clichés and vague statements of goals. Which solutions might include public service haircuts, financial markets policing, interventionism, nationalisations...etc, irrespective of (left/right) 'ideology'. And sod the naysayers, the protesters, the media, any vested interests, etc. - currently, they all contribute to the problem, not the solution. (I am aware this all sounds vaguely utopian and/or dictatorial ) I share your desire for a Pragmatist Party and the rejection of left/right dogmas. The solution is get rid of the parasites, encourage the growth of small businesses and businesses with multiple bottom lines (i.e. tax breaks) and divorce the state from its role of subsidising big business and bailing out failing institutions, resulting in fewer risks being taken on the promise of a tax payer funded safety net. Corporate law could also be reformed. Some free market economists advocate the abolition of corporate personhood altogether. There is an ongoing debate between market theorists about the degree of privilege afforded to corporations when they get their licence from the state. We assume corporate capitalism has given us all this relative prosperity, but it may be that the markets have delivered this in spite of the dominance of large corporations. Not exactly radical, but a step in the right direction if we want markets to work to their full potential, which I was under the impression is what capitalists (and some socialists) traditionally wanted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABBIDDOG Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Because they are grievances, not solutions. I'd quite like a Pragmatist Party to emerge sometime soon. No political bias (as such), just hands-on engineer-like 'this is the problem' 'this is the most likely solution' 'get to it', and the utmost (candid, some will say) transparency about Gvt liabilities, present and future, warts and all. So people understand the why, what and how of the solutions, rather than be continually spoon-fed clichés and vague statements of goals. Which solutions might include public service haircuts, financial markets policing, interventionism, nationalisations...etc, irrespective of (left/right) 'ideology'. And sod the naysayers, the protesters, the media, any vested interests, etc. - currently, they all contribute to the problem, not the solution. (I am aware this all sounds vaguely utopian and/or dictatorial ) Furry thing on a branch spouting Loob for PM! Yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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