MrSmith Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Agbus have you come up with a solution to the paradox caused by your argument that everything needs a creator. There is also the paradox that a God cannot be perfect, cannot do anything it wants, cannot be all powerful. There are many thing that a God would not be able to do. Maybe the people of God should redefine God to solve the paradoxes they have caused. That would cause its own problems a human having to define GOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorba Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Agbus have you come up with a solution to the paradox caused by your argument that everything needs a creator. There is also the paradox that a God cannot be perfect, cannot do anything it wants, cannot be all powerful. There are many thing that a God would not be able to do. Maybe the people of God should redefine God to solve the paradoxes they have caused. That would cause its own problems a human having to define GOD. You are saying there is paradox: if everything needs a creator then God needs a creator too etc etc etc. Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agbus Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Agbus have you come up with a solution to the paradox caused by your argument that everything needs a creator. There is also the paradox that a God cannot be perfect, cannot do anything it wants, cannot be all powerful. There are many thing that a God would not be able to do. Maybe the people of God should redefine God to solve the paradoxes they have caused. That would cause its own problems a human having to define GOD. There is no paradox as far as Christianity is concerned. The paradox is with the scientists who say it "just happened" while at the same time they talk about "first cause." It is through Einstein’s equations that scientists can trace the development of the universe back to its very origin, back to what is called the “singularity event” when it actually came into being. So if scientists say there can be a singular event without causation, why the heck are they saying God needed to be created. There is your paradox, the universe does not need a creator but God does (according to scientists). The so-called scientists are talking nonsense and you are parroting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz1 Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 How do you know the version of "his laws" that you have read is the right one? After all, it's a book, written by men. (Though off topic)-This is where you have failed to even bother to look at the historical context of the Quran- and made an assumption based on 'no evidence'. If you're going to claim the book of the Muslims is written by men then you have to provide evidence for this- to give you some assist, only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind, we're left with three choices: 1 - the Arabs wrote it 2 - Mohammad wrote it 3 - God wrote it No other source is possible, because Quran is written in pure,rich, and poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned sources, at that time. Now we could really get down to the hardcore stuff and analyze each source (if it comes to it) but to simplify, the Quranic Arabic used was unmatched and the most qualified and eloquent speaking Arabs of that time could not produce a single word to match it- this it self was challenged to them by the Quran (so rules out point 1). Point 2- Muhammad could not have been the author as it was well known he was illiterate and had no contact with any sources to have made the claims the Quran did or relate the events it does-Mohammad being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Again if anyone wishes to say otherwise feel free to- it will easily be rebutted. So that only leaves (by logic) that the Quran was revealed supernaturally- i.e. God. As for the question posed by Ford- I know where you're leading with this- probably best you make the point so it can be answered. Simple answer, there are manuscripts of the Quran that date back to 7th Century and later- the Quran we have today is the same Quran which was revealed to Muhammad- as it has the Quraishi dialect (as it was revealed)- so if you're leading towards this so called 'copies' of the book/ the burning etc- then yes. The Caliph Uthman had all non Quraishi dialect copies of the Quran destroyed- there are 7 dialects of the Arabic language. If you want to get in to this and believe you (or anyone else for that matter) have a strong case to prove- set up and new thread and I will see you there. Although it makes mo difference to me or any other Muslim on here if you did or not. There is no case to answer- and Muslims are more versed in their religion than non Muslims and do not need to give answers left, right and centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 There is no paradox as far as Christianity is concerned. The paradox is with the scientists who say it "just happened" while at the same time they talk about "first cause." It is through Einstein’s equations that scientists can trace the development of the universe back to its very origin, back to what is called the “singularity event” when it actually came into being. So if scientists say there can be a singular event without causation, why the heck are they saying God needed to be created. There is your paradox, the universe does not need a creator but God does (according to scientists). The so-called scientists are talking nonsense and you are parroting them. Why do you always avoid the question, you have said the proof of God is the universe because everything that exists must have a creator, if everything must have a creator to exist then God doesn't exist or as a creator. I'm not interested in what scientist say because they aren't here to support their stance. You made a claim that creates a paradox. The reason you won't answer is because you can't answer, the reason you can't answer is because you know deep down that a God simply can’t exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 (Though off topic)-This is where you have failed to even bother to look at the historical context of the Quran- and made an assumption based on 'no evidence'. If you're going to claim the book of the Muslims is written by men then you have to provide evidence for this- to give you some assist, only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind, we're left with three choices: 1 - the Arabs wrote it 2 - Mohammad wrote it 3 - God wrote it No other source is possible, because Quran is written in pure,rich, and poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned sources, at that time. Now we could really get down to the hardcore stuff and analyze each source (if it comes to it) but to simplify, the Quranic Arabic used was unmatched and the most qualified and eloquent speaking Arabs of that time could not produce a single word to match it- this it self was challenged to them by the Quran (so rules out point 1). Point 2- Muhammad could not have been the author as it was well known he was illiterate and had no contact with any sources to have made the claims the Quran did or relate the events it does-Mohammad being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Again if anyone wishes to say otherwise feel free to- it will easily be rebutted. So that only leaves (by logic) that the Quran was revealed supernaturally- i.e. God. As for the question posed by Ford- I know where you're leading with this- probably best you make the point so it can be answered. Simple answer, there are manuscripts of the Quran that date back to 7th Century and later- the Quran we have today is the same Quran which was revealed to Muhammad- as it has the Quraishi dialect (as it was revealed)- so if you're leading towards this so called 'copies' of the book/ the burning etc- then yes. The Caliph Uthman had all non Quraishi dialect copies of the Quran destroyed- there are 7 dialects of the Arabic language. If you want to get in to this and believe you (or anyone else for that matter) have a strong case to prove- set up and new thread and I will see you there. Although it makes mo difference to me or any other Muslim on here if you did or not. There is no case to answer- and Muslims are more versed in their religion than non Muslims and do not need to give answers left, right and centre. But a God would know everything that has happened and is going to happen, why would a God that knows everything keeps changing its mind. God supposedly says one thing in the Torah, something different in the Bible and then changes its mind several times in the Quran. I would have expected a God to get it right at its first attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agbus Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Why do you always avoid the question, you have said the proof of God is the universe because everything that exists must have a creator, if everything must have a creator to exist then God doesn't exist or as a creator. I'm not interested in what scientist say because they aren't here to support their stance. You made a claim that creates a paradox. The reason you won't answer is because you can't answer, the reason you can't answer is because you know deep down that a God simply can’t exist. I am saying that God has always existed and is that “singularity event.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unregistered Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Billions of wasted man hours by the exploited. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sccsux Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Like I said I should stop digging or people might find out about Salman Rushdie and the fatwā that was issued against him for writing about Allah's three daughters. One reason I am a Christian is because as far as Jesus being a Jew is concerned Christianity rises above politics and although people who follow the teaching of Mohammed sometimes become human bombs Jesus said not to murder and it is this lack of aggression that I like. Still the same old crap, don't like the answer so you attack other religions or atheists. Thank God. Which one? Is that right? If you say that everything needs a creator, then yes. There is your paradox. The paradox you have created for yourself is that you stated everything needs a creator, then say that the creator doesn't need to be created. Either everything needs a creator, or it doesn't. On this occasion, you can not "have your cake and eat it". I am saying that God has always existed and is that “singularity event.” Now you're saying that things don't need a creator. Bloody hell, make up your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 (Though off topic)-This is where you have failed to even bother to look at the historical context of the Quran- and made an assumption based on 'no evidence'. If you're going to claim the book of the Muslims is written by men then you have to provide evidence for this- to give you some assist, only an Arabic speaking entity could have write Quran. With that in mind, we're left with three choices: 1 - the Arabs wrote it 2 - Mohammad wrote it 3 - God wrote it No other source is possible, because Quran is written in pure,rich, and poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned sources, at that time. Now we could really get down to the hardcore stuff and analyze each source (if it comes to it) but to simplify, the Quranic Arabic used was unmatched and the most qualified and eloquent speaking Arabs of that time could not produce a single word to match it- this it self was challenged to them by the Quran (so rules out point 1). Point 2- Muhammad could not have been the author as it was well known he was illiterate and had no contact with any sources to have made the claims the Quran did or relate the events it does-Mohammad being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Again if anyone wishes to say otherwise feel free to- it will easily be rebutted. So that only leaves (by logic) that the Quran was revealed supernaturally- i.e. God. As for the question posed by Ford- I know where you're leading with this- probably best you make the point so it can be answered. Simple answer, there are manuscripts of the Quran that date back to 7th Century and later- the Quran we have today is the same Quran which was revealed to Muhammad- as it has the Quraishi dialect (as it was revealed)- so if you're leading towards this so called 'copies' of the book/ the burning etc- then yes. The Caliph Uthman had all non Quraishi dialect copies of the Quran destroyed- there are 7 dialects of the Arabic language. If you want to get in to this and believe you (or anyone else for that matter) have a strong case to prove- set up and new thread and I will see you there. Although it makes mo difference to me or any other Muslim on here if you did or not. There is no case to answer- and Muslims are more versed in their religion than non Muslims and do not need to give answers left, right and centre. Nice, but flawed on a basic level: If the "most qualified and eloquent speaking Arabs of that time could not produce a single word to match it" then how would they be able to read it? If someone was able to understand the writings, that same someone would have had the ability to author them also. As for this... If you're going to claim the book of the Muslims is written by men then you have to provide evidence for this My evidence is that men CAN and DO write books, it happens all the time. I'm writing right now! There is proof abundance that men could have written the quran. There has never been any proof of the existence of any gods, let alone that any wrote a book. Care to state your case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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