Chris_Sleeps Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 So what happened between 2001 and 2008? You know, while the UK's debt was increasing year after year? Maybe you can tell me. I'm open to your thoughts. Only post-2008 did it reach a higher deficit than a Conservative government had run though. The economic "Tories=Good, Labour=Bad" argument is a little shallow. There is good and bad in all things, and wisdom and folly in all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharrowman Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 It's not mine The lion's share of this 'debt' (accepting the graph stats for a minute, here) is, by 10 country miles, attributed to the private financial sector, the hourly/daily/weekly/etc. operations of which know no borders. Prepared by Morgan Stanley (which doesn't have any vested interest in propagating such news, of course, just like e.g. Goldman Sachs), on the back of 'research' to which no link or reference is provided, this chart seems to have about as much relevance as a chocolate fireguard. IMHO. No debt these days, including private domestic debt, will be tethered to a particular geographic location for long, pulled into the black hole of Credit Default Swaps in portfolios around the globe, speculated upon, bet against or bet for then whizzed again in any number of complex financial vehicles. I suspect the numbers we are presented with in the news have been cooked, not with any particular agenda in mind (except when they are!) but rather because working out the sovereign debt of a nation engaged in complex reassignments and counter-assignments of debt, transactions that can take place literally billions of times every second, is a task beyond the ken of human ingenuity. The idea of a sovereign nation today even seems a little outdated, when our borrowers, earners and producers are international entities (or perhaps transnational?) who's financial transactions are processed in timescales of fractions of seconds. This is particularly true of the finacial services sector. Erm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 who's idea was it to borrow more money to get out of our current problems, caused by debt? labour managed to ride the wave of tory management for little more than 9 months before they turned around our economy and drove it back into the red. idiots! and some people still vote for them. bigger idiots That must be why spending has increased for the last 2 years then ... Idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm open to your thoughts.Labour was busy buying itself as large an electorate as it could, the same as it always does, in most countries wherein and whenever the left/centre-left gets a turn at the wheel (...I do have about as much venom/cynicism available for Tories, btw ). The economic "Tories=Good, Labour=Bad" argument is a little shallow. There is good and bad in all things, and wisdom and folly in all things.I agree, and it was wrong of me to bring it up in this thread. No debt these days, including private domestic debt, will be tethered to a particular geographic location for long <...> Erm.... Yes? Was that agreement on your part? (I'm not bothered, just not sure how to interpret 'Erm' ) In which case, the first logical question after seeing this Morgan Stanley chart is 'who profits from this crime?' Following the money (as usual), will eventually yield the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharrowman Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 who's idea was it to borrow more money to get out of our current problems, caused by debt? labour managed to ride the wave of tory management for little more than 9 months before they turned around our economy and drove it back into the red. idiots! and some people still vote for them. bigger idiots I am interested WeX how you have come to understand the economy of Britain as 'our economy'? Today the economy of britain belongs to the heads of international corporations, the contribution you or I might make to it is chicken feed of the lowest order. 'Our economy' does not serve the people of the UK but serves these transnational oligarchs and plutocrats. Woohay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Correct. provides a better picture (and play-thing ) as regards UK sovereign debt. Will make uncomfortable reading/perusing for '97-'09 Labour supporters, though Pre-2008 public finances were sustainable. The painful bit was 2008 onwards. Anyway, enough of the boorish left-right nonsense. When will people fully accept that the global financial system is an out of control ponzi scheme that needs to be fed with ever increasing amounts of cash to keep it going. And that there is now nowhere else to go apart from taxpayers. And, the killer - there is NO LIMIT to the amount of money that needs to be fed in. And the amount that needs to be fed in is growing all the time. The longer it continues the worse it will be when it collapses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Pre-2008 public finances were sustainable.With respect, that is highly doubtful. Peruse the bottom table, consider e.g. Norway (admirable progression), then consider the UK, year after year - before 2008. 'Losing a place' every year, up and up the table it goes. As clear a sign of unsustainable deficit as any. The longer it continues the worse it will be when it collapses.But I agree entirely about the 'system' needing a re-boot (collapse, restart on clean bases). Have done so for a long enough time indeed: What is needed, is L00b's great solution to the global crisis (I claim first dibs, Gordy, ye hear?):declare a global bankrupcy to purge all of the toxic stuff once and for all, everybody starts with a clean slate (and current assets and bank balances), everybody who buys something pays for it with real money, any form of financial construct/product other than straightforward credit (mortgage and company loans, mainly) is outlawed, stock market workings to be legally-limited to trading actual shares in real companies with real assets, and nothing else (none of that mickey-mouse false/future profit-making futures'n'whatever else 'wind money' crap) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeX Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 That must be why spending has increased for the last 2 years then ... Idiot one set of idiots got us into this mess at the behest of another larger set of idiots. at least you're not alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 With respect, that is highly doubtful. Peruse the bottom table, consider e.g. Norway (admirable progression), then consider the UK, year after year - before 2008. 'Losing a place' every year, up and up the table it goes. As clear a sign of unsustainable deficit as any. But I agree entirely about the 'system' needing a re-boot (collapse, restart on clean bases). Have done so for a indeed: I can't agree that public finances had become unmanageable pre-2008. They weren't great but they weren't going to take down the economy either. I do like your financial system reboot ideas though. Things can't continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeX Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I am interested WeX how you have come to understand the economy of Britain as 'our economy'? Today the economy of britain belongs to the heads of international corporations, the contribution you or I might make to it is chicken feed of the lowest order. 'Our economy' does not serve the people of the UK but serves these transnational oligarchs and plutocrats. Woohay! true to a degree. governments are not powerless. they can effect the economy, just they are not 100% in control. look at black Wednesday, that was caused by the exchange traders trying to force a devaluation by dumping the pound. but the uk economy was moving in the right direction for years before labour took control. then they gained power and everything reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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