Interests of Britain or intrests of Europe paramount?

[I1L2T3]

not sure where you got this idea from, soveriegn debt might end up with a bit of extra protection from germany and france but very little else will

 

there won't be a new country either, just the 17 existing ones working a bit closer together

 

 

 

elected politicians have made such a brilliant job of running things up to now haven't they.....

 

in the short term there isn't an alternative to austerity measures, in the longer term the proposed deal seems to limit the ability of governments to go on wild spending sprees which, in general, probably isn't too bad an idea.

 

 

 

the euro has to be saved, if it failed then the economies of the weaker nations would be wiped out, and the other european economies, including ours, would be crippled.

 

The idea is not mine.

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-saft/2011/12/06/merkozy-decrees-no-more-losses/

 

It is effectively a new country. No doubts about it. They have currency union. They want fiscal union. They have already started discussiong political union.

 

Our elected politicians are not (edit) great. Would we want to swap them for unelected officials? Er, no.

 

There is no point in saving the Euro. It will die anyway. Take the pain now because it will be magnitudes worse later.

 

I can agree to disagree with you

[andyofborg]

Cameron will be fine too. Merkosy wont want a UK referendum, therefore the only logical outcome is a series of concessions to the UK in the form of opt outs.

 

i can't really see the need for a uk referendum about this, it's not like we can reject it since the alternative would be the collapse of the eurozone economies, which would take ours with it.

 

the eurozone countries could and should do a deal amongst themselves.

 

i'm not really sure why everyone is getting excited about optouts since most of the things the tory right want to opt out from are the sorts of things which protect the weak and vulnerable.

[spooky3]

It seems that the people who lend the money call the shots.

 

That's your argument for becoming a full member of the EU???

 

 

 

The world is full of money lenders of all persuasions.

[andyofborg]

The idea is not mine.

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-saft/2011/12/06/merkozy-decrees-no-more-losses/

 

nothing there about a new country

 

I can agree to disagree with you

 

only if you agree that i'm right

[Guest sibon]

i can't really see the need for a uk referendum about this, it's not like we can reject it since the alternative would be the collapse of the eurozone economies, which would take ours with it.

 

the eurozone countries could and should do a deal amongst themselves.

 

i'm not really sure why everyone is getting excited about optouts since most of the things the tory right want to opt out from are the sorts of things which protect the weak and vulnerable.

 

Any change that causes a transfer of sovereignty, automatically triggers a UK referendum. That will take months and will almost certainly return a negative result. That will delay changes within the Eurozone, a delay that could be fatal.

 

The opt outs will be negotiated to placate the Tory right. Don't forget how divided the Tories are over Europe, let alone the Coalition.

[I1L2T3]

nothing there about a new country

 

You specifically asked about the idea of taxpayers being a backstop for bank debt. I gave you a link and never claimed it would say anything about the new country.

 

The country thing is my own idea, although it should be pretty obvious what an economically, fiscally, politically integrated bloc effectively is.

[VideoPro]

It will be interesting to see if Merkel actually achieves anything.

 

Her domestic policies that affect ordinary people have so far have amounted to "we have to talk about talking about it".

[andyofborg]

Any change that causes a transfer of sovereignty, automatically triggers a UK referendum. That will take months and will almost certainly return a negative result. That will delay changes within the Eurozone, a delay that could be fatal.

 

we aren't losing any soverignty though

 

The opt outs will be negotiated to placate the Tory right. Don't forget how divided the Tories are over Europe, let alone the Coalition.

 

indeed but the consequences of what is opted out from will be felt by those at the bottom of the pile.

[andyofborg]

You specifically asked about the idea of taxpayers being a backstop for bank debt. I gave you a link and never claimed it would say anything about the new country.

 

its only sovereign debt that's being backstopped not bank debt in general, though if faced with a big bank failing then nationalisation is probably going to be the outcome.

[I1L2T3]

its only sovereign debt that's being backstopped not bank debt in general, though if faced with a big bank failing then nationalisation is probably going to be the outcome.

 

That tax payers are backstopping all sovereign debt with no private sector losses is bad enough in itself. It's more than sovereign debt though. When the massive crunch/crash eventually happens, if the banks are to be kept afloat, there is nowhere else to go other than tha taxpayer to backstop every piece of toxic rubbish the banks are holding. That should be pretty obvious - we are pretty much at the end of the line.