Are you proud of Cameron for keeping us out of the new Euro club?

[rothschild]

I would be happy if we had the same kind of relationship with Europe as that enjoyed by Switzerland and Norway, meaning friendly free trade agreements with the EU whilst being outside of the political union. Yesterday was a step in the right direction.

 

 

I agree with this post.

 

I also think that Cameron did the right thing and I respect him for that. He listened to the country where those that went before him just stuck their fingers up to the country and did what they wanted.

 

I think what might happen over the next couple of weeks will be interesting. I'm just glad that we got to spend our cache of euro's at the Brugge xmas markets last weekend. :-)

[Mecky]

I also think that Cameron did the right thing and I respect him for that. He listened to the country where those that went before him just stuck their fingers up to the country and did what they wanted.

 

 

Ah, right, that must be why he feels it is necessary to defend himself as he will have to do today.

[L00b]

Ah, right, that must be why he feels it is necessary to defend himself as he will have to do today.

Were you posting about Ed Milliband, per chance? The very one who slated Cameron last week, but conceded this morning on TV (BBC News) that Cameron did the right thing? Like Clegg will do today?

 

I'm as Europhile as they come, French and only here in the UK/Sheffield because EU mechanisms facilitated that to such an extent, but make no mistake - until we have a clear indication of what was actually on the table during that meeting, which Cameron eventually turned down, for all I know and care Cameron did absolutely the right thing for UK plc, and all aboard that ship.

Here's the thing; this might be the very best thing that could happen for the long term health of UK PLC. It might take a decade to recognise, but Cameron and Hague could well be the quiet heroes we've been looking for to reinstate the UK's economy years before the rest of Europe and the USA.

 

What do you think?

I think that I agree with that very much. But then I generally always look at and think about things long-term.

 

And I can also see a short-term benefit as well, which I'm surprised political/economical commentators haven't made more noise about: when the transaction tax will get rolled out in the 17 EZ countries as a result of their go-ahead, expectedly very soon, the UK financial sector will see an immediate surge (then a sustained level-) of capital repatriation/transit, wiping out Paris and Frankfurt's sustained attempts to eat away at the City's market share. That means more tax to the UK coffers, and expectedly little to no gain achieved by this Tobin tax.

 

IMHO, that's one of the main reasons why Sarkozy and Merkel were so hacked off at Cameron. They cut their nose to spite their face, and they know it, and they know that Cameron knows it too But rather than see it as a 'betrayal' (of the EU) or some such other nonsense, I simply see it as playing a national competitive advantage at the right time, in the right circumstances. That it doubles as foiling Germany's (very-) long-term plan to own and run the EU is just the cherry on the cake

[retep]

I can't quite imagine the scene. How did they restrain him?

 

Elastic bands around his hands, and put him in a shoebox.

[grafikhaus74]

Rather good and amusing article by Daniel Hannan here.

 

"A completely new entity is taking shape, based around what Herman Van Rompuy calls ‘European economic government’, and José Manuel Barroso calls ‘fiscal federalism’. Let’s call it the Fiscal Union, or FU. For that, indeed, must be how it often seems to its constituent peoples.

 

You’re Irish and you don’t see why your taxes are going up to repay European bankers and bondholders? FU! You’re Italian and you’re wondering why Brussels has imposed a government on you that doesn’t contain a single elected politician? FU! You’re Greek and you’d prefer a devaluation to the present endless crisis? FU!"

 

It now seems apparent that Cameron went with little intention of demanding repatriation of powers etc. but just seeked assurances that the EU wouldn't side against the City (a major contributor of taxes to the UK or 'Cameron's pals'. You decide). Merkozy wouldn't give any such assurances so Cameron had no option to do what he did.

 

Interesting that UKIP (the natural home for disaffected Tories) are showing their true colours by criticising Cameron. Why, when they would have done exactly the same? Because it weakens their position with the electorate and thus shows them as being like all politicians who put ministerial cars ahead of principles.

 

p.s. Good post #63 Loob.

[PeteMorris]

Is it not the case that whoever has been in power in succesive governments since Thatcher, of whatever persuasion has focussed on 'building' the financial, service, and public sectors to the exclusion of what was once the engineering powerhouse of the world! Being based in Sheffiled, you must all know this to be true. How many of you on here who once worked in engineering, now work at Sainsbury's, or Mac's or Meadowhall, or whatever, just to earn a crust (services).

 

This course of action has now come to haunt us all, as the financial aspect of our economy is no longer and can no longer be the powerhouse of the UK economy.

 

I have no idea what will happen in the future, but some of the old school politicians who abandoned British Engineering must be reflecting on poor shortsighted decisions years ago!

[L00b]

I have no idea what will happen in the future, but some of the old school politicians who abandoned British Engineering must be reflecting on poor shortsighted decisions years ago!

They may do that, then again they may not, and just foresaw what was inevitably coming and tried to prepare the country for it.

 

The core problem with UK manufacturing, as I 'lived it' during my employment in Sheffield-typical industry in the late 90s, was that too little £ went into product development, R&D and -generally speaking- "technological edge"-building. Endemic short-termism, bag'em/tag'em -approach, with little to no coordination between sectors to convincly upsell the "made in UK".

 

Against emerging nations like South Africa, India, China, more recently Brazil, each with production costs an order of magnitude or two under the cheapest the UK could provide, this was always going to turn into a losing game. First markets to go would be the easy-to-make stuff, then as these countries were soaking up tech and know-how, ever higher-tech markets would go too. To the situation we currently have.

 

Those UK engineering businesses that were doing R&D, by and large are still here, and British Engineering is alive and doing very well indeed (that said, they could do with more engineers, which Unis have been turning out at too slow a rate). Just on a much smaller scale than it ever used to, because the menial-/labour-type jobs couldn't ever be maintained here economically, in the context of a global economy.

[grafikhaus74]

Again, I must agree with Loob. I too lived through the industrial age of the 80s and 90s and we got it totally wrong. Robert Pestons excellent 'The Party's Over' last night on BBC2 talked of the 'mittelstand' in Germany where they did - and still do - forgo the quick rush for profits and instead concentrate on steady, sustainable growth.

 

What's done is done and personally I feel a grinding sense of inevitability about our demise. Can it be reversed? I very much doubt it.

Bit more here.

[PeteMorris]

They may do that, then again they may not, and just foresaw what was inevitably coming and tried to prepare the country for it.

 

The core problem with UK manufacturing, as I 'lived it' during my employment in Sheffield-typical industry in the late 90s, was that too little £ went into product development, R&D and -generally speaking- "technological edge"-building. Endemic short-termism, bag'em/tag'em -approach, with little to no coordination between sectors to convincly upsell the "made in UK".

 

Against emerging nations like South Africa, India, China, more recently Brazil, each with production costs an order of magnitude or two under the cheapest the UK could provide, this was always going to turn into a losing game. First markets to go would be the easy-to-make stuff, then as these countries were soaking up tech and know-how, ever higher-tech markets would go too. To the situation we currently have.

 

 

Those UK engineering businesses that were doing R&D, by and large are still here, and British Engineering is alive and doing very well indeed (that said, they could do with more engineers, which Unis have been turning out at too slow a rate). Just on a much smaller scale than it ever used to, because the menial-/labour-type jobs couldn't ever be maintained here economically, in the context of a global economy.

 

Yes I agree entirely. But even the shall we say 'lower end' of the talent pool, like toolmakers and skilled setters are not now, and havn't been replaced with the intake from schools in traditional apprenticeships like in my day. Yes we have sort of apprenticeships these days, but IMHO, they're only pseudo apprenticeships, not like in my day (70's). Of course the R&D has suffered too, as you say with Uni's not churning out the right calibre or quantity of talented engineers. It's all such a waste!

 

Fortunately, I still work in metal-bashing (as I call it). We had an instance the other day at work where a customer of ours bought products from some Eastern European company because they were cheap. On receipt of his products, it transpires that they are all no good whatsoever, and he wanted us to 'try' to repair them. They were of such poor quality, this has proved impossible and now, he's got to have them remade by us. Good for us I suppose, but it just demonstrates that exported engineering isn't always best cos it's cheap. Yes it's going to cost him more to have them remade in this country, but at least he knows they're going to be right!!!

[L00b]

Fortunately, I still work in metal-bashing (as I call it).

I work with a number of local and not-so-local innovative metal-bashers (...and I too like to call it that, affectionately)

 

Certainly it's what gives me, or keeps my, faith in British Engineering. Brits are still world class (tech) problem solvers, by some margin. I witness that nearly every day.

 

But the educational system has got to pull its fingers out of its basket-weaving-meedja-namby-pamby orifice, to ensure upcoming generations get hold of that torch, and run faster still with it. Perhaps the whole "uni fees and apprenticeship drive" thing is a step in the right direction. It'd be nice, and I'm cautiously optimistic.