Harleyman Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 And what did they say about Christmas, and can you give us examples. They repeated what was shown on the signboards. Nothing offensive as far as I remember just something along the lines that the birth of JC was some kind of fairy story and that they wished their views to be known to the public. I have no beef with their signboards or their messages. I'm an ardent believer in the complete separatiion of church and state. I have to laugh at the Christians who expressed outrage at allowing the signs to be displayed. Being Americans they should know that the First Amendment allows for freedom of expression as well as there being separation of church and state. The Founding Fathers made this part of the Constitution. It's all a bit of a mystery to me. They were Christian men (Freemasons most of them) and followed the teachings of the bible yet had no intention of allowing the church to have any say in governing the country. I imagine that their intention was that everyone should be free to worship whatever they wanted to in the pursuit of happiness. There's no law in the books that says that an Atheist cannot run for public office so why there are none in Congress is certainly nothing to do with any requirement that they must be Christian obviously. I believe Bobby Jindal the Republican governor of Louisiana is a Hindu. His parents or grandparenbts came from India. You wont find any bibles or any other kind or religious objects in American public schools nor are they allowed to teach religious instruction of any kind no prayers or hymns at morning assembly. The California legislature has recently required all public schools to include "Gay studies" in school programs. For years teachers have been required to teach "ethnic studies" with much less orientation on history and "dead white males" as the "educational Gurus" somewhat contemptuosly refer to the Founding Fathers and their times. That's probably why a distressingly number of high school kids in the last few years dont know squat about who were the drafters of the Constitution and the circumstances that led to their country come into being. Rather pitiful to put it mildly. It's commonly said that immigrants like me who had to learn all this in order to take and pass the test to become naturalized citizens know far far more about the subject than their American born counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 There's no shortage of those in the US; unfortunately. "You can't put up a Christmas tree (not a Christian symbol!) or any decorations on premises owned by the Federal Government because that infringes upon the principle of separation of church and state." Federal employees have also been prohibited from putting Christmas cards (even the ones which say 'Happy Holidays' 'Season's greetings' or 'Best wishes from Snoopy') on their desks. The attitude of some appears to be: "I'm a miserable sod and I'll do my best to make sure you don't enjoy yourselves." Strangely enough a "living manger" was displayed on the grounds of City Hall in my town this Christmas. A few years ago someone objected to it and it disappeared for a number of years. Now it's bacjk again I happened to pass by one evening and saw a crowd gathered around it. There were no demonstrations or people voicing verbal objections but then again I live in a community which is strongly Republican and church going into the bargain. It has it's plus side I must admit. Very low crime rate, no drunken yobs congregating outside the local bars at midnight shouting or peeing/throwing up on the sidewalks and you could leave your garage door open all night without having anything stolen. It does make for a more pleasant trouble free existence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Better than the devout atheists who cut off their noses to spite their faces and act like a bunch of Grinches, Jovies. Puritans (take your pick) when Dec 25th rolls around. It's the kind of Atheists who because of their strongly held beliefs against Christmas and who deny themselves any enjoyment from it whatsoever who are the target of my ridicule. I'm sure there must be quite a lot of them too. I've never met, nor heard of, any "atheist" who acts like that. Where are they? Give us examples. There are some in Santa Monica apparently who were very happy to air their views on the media about how they felt about Christmas. And what did they say about Christmas, and can you give us examples. They repeated what was shown on the signboards. Nothing offensive as far as I remember just something along the lines that the birth of JC was some kind of fairy story and that they wished their views to be known to the public. With reference to your last quote, if you follow the flow of the thread, you will see that taxman and myself were taking issue with your comments in bold ... specifically correlating being an atheist with being a miserable git at Christmas. There is no evidence of this, and your Santa Monica signboards aren't evidence of this. Damon Vix, the atheist guy responsible for mischievously organising lottery entries whilst the local churches sat on their arses might be the life and soul of the party at Christmas time for all we know. You'll be correlating atheism with moral behaviour next! EDIT. Ooops too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 With reference to your last quote, if you follow the flow of the thread, you will see that taxman and myself were taking issue with your comments in bold ... specifically correlating being an atheist with being a miserable git at Christmas. There is no evidence of this, and your Santa Monica signboards aren't evidence of this. Damon Vix, the atheist guy responsible for mischievously organising lottery entries whilst the local churches sat on their arses might be the life and soul of the party at Christmas time for all we know. You'll be correlating atheism with moral behaviour next! EDIT. Ooops too late. I also posted that many Atheists probably do enjoy Christmas but you seem to have ignored that. My comments were aimed at the few (and they do definitely exist) who deny themslves the joys of the season because they equate Christmas strictly with religion and make themselves objects of ridicule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I have no beef with their signboards or their messages. I'm an ardent believer in the complete separatiion of church and state. I have to laugh at the Christians who expressed outrage at allowing the signs to be displayed. Being Americans they should know that the First Amendment allows for freedom of expression as well as there being separation of church and state. The Founding Fathers made this part of the Constitution. It's all a bit of a mystery to me. They were Christian men (Freemasons most of them) and followed the teachings of the bible yet had no intention of allowing the church to have any say in governing the country. I imagine that their intention was that everyone should be free to worship whatever they wanted to in the pursuit of happiness. There's no law in the books that says that an Atheist cannot run for public office so why there are none in Congress is certainly nothing to do with any requirement that they must be Christian obviously. I believe Bobby Jindal the Republican governor of Louisiana is a Hindu. His parents or grandparenbts came from India. You wont find any bibles or any other kind or religious objects in American public schools nor are they allowed to teach religious instruction of any kind no prayers or hymns at morning assembly. The California legislature has recently required all public schools to include "Gay studies" in school programs. For years teachers have been required to teach "ethnic studies" with much less orientation on history and "dead white males" as the "educational Gurus" somewhat contemptuosly refer to the Founding Fathers and their times. That's probably why a distressingly number of high school kids in the last few years dont know squat about who were the drafters of the Constitution and the circumstances that led to their country come into being. Rather pitiful to put it mildly. It's commonly said that immigrants like me who had to learn all this in order to take and pass the test to become naturalized citizens know far far more about the subject than their American born counterparts. There's too much for me to disagree with there to write anything at length. What I will say is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were anti-clerical Christians, and a few others, notably Thomas Paine, were deists. Why they thought of separating church and state is a mystery to you is a mystery to me. There are rules against atheists running for public office in Texas, but mainly the political system has been screwed so much that candidates now have to proclaim their religiosity to have a chance. As for religion in public schools: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/us/battling-anew-over-the-place-of-religion-in-public-schools.html?_r=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I also posted that many Atheists probably do enjoy Christmas but you seem to have ignored that. My comments were aimed at the few (and they do definitely exist) who deny themslves the joys of the season because they equate Christmas strictly with religion and make themselves objects of ridicule. I'm sure they do, ... somewhere. But I've never met one, ever. And you've yet to provide evidence of any. Yet you chose to compare atheists with Jehovas Witnesses, puritanical Christians and the Grinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I'm going to make a claim that is probably not provable/disprovable because nobody has ever done any research. A larger percentage of atheists/agnostics celebrate Christmas than any other religious group, followed by Christians and then Muslims/Hinuds/Sikhs and other non-Christian religious groups. I suspect the presence of various Christian groups like the JWs, that don't celebrate Christmas, actually takes the percentage of Christians below that of the non-religious. Some of the non-Christian religious folk, like goggles, might have religious reasons for not celebrating Christmas, making their percentages lower still. The non-religious simply don't equate Christmas with religion, it doesn't make sense, and I've never heard an atheist/agnostic mention it. Religion just doesn't provide reason not to celebrate for the non-religion. Over commercialisation might be a reason, but this would be an equal reason for all people, of all religious faiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Well this is the reason I like the US, have chosen to visit many times and have studied the history. I am pleased that some people have the sense to defend it, and complain against government support for a particular religion. Hurrah for them. I know many religious folk that actively support the Constitution and separation of state and church just as much as atheists, and complain at public religious signs. They recognise it protects them too. There's nothing wrong with 'separation of church and state' (I think it's a bloody good idea!) The first article starts with the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Which some people have misinterpreted as meaning "There shall be no religion." "Public religious signs" do not equate to "A state-sponsored or state-ordained religion." The Americans don't want a State Religion (and bearing in mind that the Pilgrim Fathers left the UK because they objected to paying taxes to a State Church) it's easy to understand why. The First article prohibits Congress from setting up a State religion, but it goes on to say (immediately after the bit I quoted) " or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It seems to me that banning individuals (who are not 'the government' or 'Congress') from putting up Christmas trees (which are not religious objects anyway) comes a bit close to infringing the bit about 'freedom of speech.' I can understand them saying "You're not spending taxpayers' money on Christmas decorations" but "You are not to put up any decorations (even if you paid for them and put them up in your own time) is hardly the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 ... Very low crime rate, no drunken yobs congregating outside the local bars at midnight shouting or peeing/throwing up on the sidewalks and you could leave your garage door open all night without having anything stolen. It does make for a more pleasant trouble free existence It's a dangerous life in crime-ridden America. Those people in Sheffield with their low-crime society don't know they're born! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speccy24 Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Atheists shouldn't celebrate it either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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