Scottish Independence

[mjw47]

Now I think you're the one being obtuse.

 

The yes vote almost entirely focused on oil.

 

Do you consider that to be thinking about the prospects of future generations?

 

That's why I said I would be realistic as I am, and look at the facts, and I said I was a worker because I was demonstrating the opposite point, someone living in squalor has no reason NOT to vote for change [of any kind].

 

I saw nothing about the short-term economy if it went through (i.e obvious initial instability), nothing about plans for when the oil runs out in 30-40 years, nothing about how they were going to finance the improvements to NHS and education that they were promising straight away.

 

Had the yes vote shown a long-term plan (as well as feasible initial short-term plans), and shown how it WOULD work, then they perhaps would have won. As it was, it was full of holes. And people saw that.

 

They were probably afraid to say that it would be a mare for a few years until trust and stability increased. Had they done so and been honest instead of just answering every question with the boring rhetoric 'We'll have the power, we can do what we want!', they perhaps would have had far more credibility.

 

You seem to think of the voters and me as weak, when really it was the campaign that was weak, IMO.

 

 

 

Different generation. People aren't made of the same stuff in this generation. (slight generalisation I know, but I think you get the gist)

 

 

 

Bold, that looks like a pop. I explained this above. We have a lot of expensive luxuries in this country, which we all contribute to with very high taxation. It's all risk factor. And they've got the better option if we prop it up if it goes tits up.

 

Even if it worked, who's to say where the money will go. People don't trust politicians at the best of times. (rightly or wrongly)

 

 

 

Absolutely. I don't think I've stifled the discussion. I've stated my opinions and so have you

 

---------- Post added 20-09-2014 at 01:08 ----------

 

 

Since the vote is over, and few areas in Scotland are Tory, then Cameron could quite easily tell Sturgeon to go **** her demands. He won't lose anything from that.

 

The Yes vote spoke about the oil because the No vote tended to keep stating that Scotland would be skint a week on Tuesday if they went independent.

 

They would have been in a totally better position than Ireland found itself in in 1922 following a war, and with Britain acting the poor loser by imposing every obstacle they could in the way of the emerging nation.

 

By contrast Scotland would have had it easy.

 

I agree the campaigns, both of them, were weak but the opportunity for self determination without warfare - a rare thing - was on offer and they preferred to worry about the Bawbee's.

 

That was my prediction from the very start, but I hoped they'd show some gumption and prove me wrong.

 

Agree with you about the generational thing, they had a lot less than us and had to put up with a lot more. Can't help thinking they were better than us and we have let them down.

 

Sorry if that came across as a pop, it wasn't meant that way, simply emphasising the over concentration on money and lack of thought on opportunity.

 

And no, you haven't stifled the discussion at all, you've added to it, it's been enjoyable.

[Agent Orange]

Intelligent Scots? Sounds like an oxymoron right now.

 

You are aware that a number of countries smaller than Scotland are better off in terms of standards of living, which is all that should matter to the average citizen?

 

Scotland have an international image, oil assets which would have provided them with breathing space, well marketed products such as Scotch Whisky, Scotch salmon, and a thriving tourist trade, all of which is far more than many other countries that had to fight for their freedom had when they started off.

 

Despite this they lack the courage , faith and conviction that they can make a go of it. Pathetic.

 

Forever in England's shadow, forever looking for support from their big brother.

 

Full of pee and wind, but lacking conviction when push comes to shove.

 

They have embarrassed themselves.

 

You are talking as if the majority of Scots wanted independence. I think it is unfair to suggest that the Scots bottled it when most of those that voted no didn't want independence in the first place.

 

The only people who should feel embarrassed are the SNP.

[Bonzo77]

Sounds like wise heads on old shoulders.

 

Sounds like a bunch of old folks who were scared about what might happen to their pensions.

 

---------- Post added 20-09-2014 at 11:57 ----------

 

You are talking as if the majority of Scots wanted independence. I think it is unfair to suggest that the Scots bottled it when most of those that voted no didn't want independence in the first place.

 

The only people who should feel embarrassed are the SNP.

 

I don't think the SNP would feel embarrassed. Give it another 20/30 years and the outcome of the next referendum could be very different.

[Agent Orange]

Sounds like a bunch of old folks who were scared about what might happen to their pensions.

 

---------- Post added 20-09-2014 at 11:57 ----------

 

 

I don't think the SNP would feel embarrassed. Give it another 20/30 years and the outcome of the next referendum could be very different.

 

Possibly. Although, I suspect if they get everything they want from Westminster on the back of this, they might realise being in the Union ain't so bad.

[Bonzo77]

Possibly. Although, I suspect if they get everything they want from Westminster on the back of this, they might realise being in the Union ain't so bad.

 

True......which is another back handed victory for the SNP. Not ideally what they wanted, but at least a compromise.

[mjw47]

You are talking as if the majority of Scots wanted independence. I think it is unfair to suggest that the Scots bottled it when most of those that voted no didn't want independence in the first place.

 

The only people who should feel embarrassed are the SNP.

 

In which case they are a people who are that lacking in self confidence, patriotism ,and faith in their own ability to make a go of it as a sovereign nation that they are to be pitied.

 

There was sense in the Union when European countries were continually at war with each other but not so anymore.

 

As for the SNP they have won major concessions from Westminster for Scotland and have no need to feel embarrassed whatsoever.

 

Have to say I never took to Salmond in the same way I can't take to Farage, but fairs fair, they both know how to play to game of politics.

[*_ash_*]

The Yes vote spoke about the oil because the No vote tended to keep stating that Scotland would be skint a week on Tuesday if they went independent.

 

They would have been in a totally better position than Ireland found itself in in 1922 following a war, and with Britain acting the poor loser by imposing every obstacle they could in the way of the emerging nation.

 

By contrast Scotland would have had it easy.

 

Perhaps then ironically, if Scotland had held this referendum when the country was skint or bust, it might have been a different result too? Especially this bit...

 

Agree with you about the generational thing, they had a lot less than us and had to put up with a lot more. Can't help thinking they were better than us and we have let them down.

 

-

 

What I think we probably all knew, and I certainly would have predicted is the stats shown earlier [if true] that the young were more likely in favour (and my thoughts were that poor - whether working or not) would also make up a lot of the yes vote. This fits in with what happens in most walks of life, younger/poorer, generally are more open for change, prepared to take more risks (and perhaps on a scale closer to anarchistic in mind).

 

Sorry if that came across as a pop, it wasn't meant that way, simply emphasising the over concentration on money and lack of thought on opportunity.

 

And no, you haven't stifled the discussion at all, you've added to it, it's been enjoyable.

 

No worries Yes it's a good debate this one. It's something new anyway.

[carosio]

Sounds like a bunch of old folks who were scared about what might happen to their pensions.

 

They have every right to be alarmed when faced with the uncertainty of the currency following independence.

[tinfoilhat]

Scotland has a population of 5.3 million.

 

The following countries are ranked higher than the UK for standard of living.

 

Norway 5.1 million ranked number one in the world.

 

New Zealand 4.5 million ranked number 5

 

Ireland 4.6 million ranked number 7

 

Denmark 5.6 million not in the top ten but ranked above the UK

 

Other countries such as Austria 8.5 million, Switzerland 7.3 million and Sweden 9.5 million are also doing better than the UK for standard of living proving that you don't have to be big if you conduct your affairs correctly which I believe the Scots would be capable of.

 

Of course the UK would be up there close to Norway if our beloved leaders stopped acting as though we were still a world power, spending billions on the means to join in Americas adventures, and enabling our politicians to sit at the 'top table' with the really big guys and pretend they matter.

 

We should base our foreign affairs strategy on Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany.

 

Peace keeping non aggression would save billions.

 

I didn't realise they were as close to the Scandinavian countries in terms of population. I can't really grasp this thirst for independence though - over the last 100 years have they had a worst deal than say Tyneside or even South Yorkshire? It's hardly the Gaza Strip.

[Agent Orange]

In which case they are a people who are that lacking in self confidence, patriotism ,and faith in their own ability to make a go of it as a sovereign nation that they are to be pitied.

 

If they are happy with status quo and/or are against independence, how does that to equate to them lacking in self confidence, patriotism or having a lack of faith?