Scottish Independence

[GLASGOWOODS]

Yes you should have got a vote - Scots in Canada even got to vote! I also know you should have got a vote (maybe a proxy postal?) as colleague was born in Scotland, lives in Sheffield, and got to vote!

 

Someone's telling you a few porkies here. Load of nonsense.

[mjw47]

I don't see any sense in continuing a legacy of bitterness over events that happened hundreds of years ago. Is there any logic for a Scots person to hold some kind of dislike for Sassenachs because their very distant ancestors invaded and massacred some of your very distant ancestors.

 

From a purely historical perspective 1066 and Agincourt do interest me but I attach no emotional feeling to either event. I have Irish blood on my mother's side but the Irish potato famine causes no emotion in me either except to say that it was a tragedy which could have been avoided if the corn laws had been abolished. That's just history to me.. nothing else

 

With regard to your first point I agree, seeing as how most people have no idea what their ancestors were doing at the time, there is every possibility that it was their ancestors who were doing the massacring!

 

In every probability a bit of both.

 

As for the 'Irish potato famine' that's a bit different in my view.

 

There was no Famine.

 

In order to have a famine you need a scarcity of food.

 

During the period of the 'Famine' Ireland was a net producer of food, there was enough wheat, corn, and live stock produced in Ireland to feed the population more than twice over.

 

Virtually all of it was exported to England under the escort of armed troops, over 70 regiments were involved.

 

It was quite common at that time throughout mainland Europe, Ireland and Scotland for peasant farmers to rely on the potato as a main part of their diet.

 

The potato blight was experienced throughout Europe and Scotland also.

 

A few died in Europe, very few in Scotland, they were helped by parliament.

 

In Ireland the blight was seized on by the British as an opportunity to get rid of as many Irish as possible.

 

It's known as genocide.

 

The memory of that act wound up costing the British the first crack in the Empire, which ended in it falling apart.

 

In a later post you accuse the Gaels of having a long memory for long ago battles.

 

Yeah, right. . Because the English never do anything like that do they?

 

'England won the war' err not really, combined effort with the Russians and Americans playing a bigger part, and many other nations combining to match 'England's' ( Britain you clowns ) efforts.

 

Then there's the ongoing dislike of the French, the Enente Cordiale was signed in 1904, we've been allies and fought several wars as allies since then but still many of the English have a chip on their shoulder about the French.

 

Perhaps it goes back to Agincourt 1415? A battle won in a war that was lost.

[Guest]

Yes you should have got a vote - Scots in Canada even got to vote! I also know you should have got a vote (maybe a proxy postal?) as colleague was born in Scotland, lives in Sheffield, and got to vote!

 

https://kmpunksays.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/lies.jpeg

[annbaker]

Then you are a British national or a Scottish national if you like. You are not a Scottish nationalist. There is a difference

 

What really? Is there?

 

Thanks mecky but I am well aware of that

[Harleyman]

Harleyman

 

I will however continue to believe that many Scots have a wee bit too much of a sense of history.

 

Why do you think that? .... Too many old stories passed down from generation to generation ... It is not stories it is FACT!

 

---------- Post added 24-09-2014 at 06:34 ----------

 

If it weren't for the Scottish you would have no phone, TV ....You know what ... Not enough page on this forum to hold everything the Scottish invented.

 

---------- Post added 24-09-2014 at 06:41 ----------

 

Look it up a lot will surprise you, Silly things like who invented the bank of England, Who invented the wording of " Great Britain ETC.

 

I am well aware of the talents of the Scots. Statesmen, scientists, engineers, soldiers of distinction, explorers great literary writers to mention a few

 

Even that great and famous fictitious detective Sherlock Holmes was the invention of a Scotsman

 

But passing down stories of long ago past wars and injustices to gullible children doesn't really serve a useful purpose. It's divisive essentially and there's little point to it

 

---------- Post added 24-09-2014 at 21:09 ----------

 

With regard to your first point I agree, seeing as how most people have no idea what their ancestors were doing at the time, there is every possibility that it was their ancestors who were doing the massacring!

 

In every probability a bit of both.

 

As for the 'Irish potato famine' that's a bit different in my view.

 

There was no Famine.

 

In order to have a famine you need a scarcity of food.

 

During the period of the 'Famine' Ireland was a net producer of food, there was enough wheat, corn, and live stock produced in Ireland to feed the population more than twice over.

 

Virtually all of it was exported to England under the escort of armed troops, over 70 regiments were involved.

 

It was quite common at that time throughout mainland Europe, Ireland and Scotland for peasant farmers to rely on the potato as a main part of their diet.

 

The potato blight was experienced throughout Europe and Scotland also.

 

A few died in Europe, very few in Scotland, they were helped by parliament.

 

In Ireland the blight was seized on by the British as an opportunity to get rid of as many Irish as possible.

 

It's known as genocide.

 

The memory of that act wound up costing the British the first crack in the Empire, which ended in it falling apart.

 

In a later post you accuse the Gaels of having a long memory for long ago battles.

 

Yeah, right. . Because the English never do anything like that do they?

 

'England won the war' err not really, combined effort with the Russians and Americans playing a bigger part, and many other nations combining to match 'England's' ( Britain you clowns ) efforts.

 

Then there's the ongoing dislike of the French, the Enente Cordiale was signed in 1904, we've been allies and fought several wars as allies since then but still many of the English have a chip on their shoulder about the French.

 

Perhaps it goes back to Agincourt 1415? A battle won in a war that was lost.

 

I fully agree with what you say about the potato famine. One of the most despicable acts of inhumanity were the high tariffs placed on American wheat imports which could have fed just about the whole population.

 

Ireland's loss was in many ways America's (among other countries) gain.

 

Irish labor, intellect and perseverance played a major part in making this country a world power from just a few colonial states.

 

The Scots and French were allies of long standing. The Scots refer to it as the "auld alliance" as I'm sure you already know In medieval times there was a constant war at sea between the English, the French, the Spanish and the Scots Raids on northern English coastal towns by Scottish sailors were routine. Spanish and French ships attacked English ships and English ships attacked French and Spanish in return. It was a huge trade in loot and booty which benefited everyone on all sides down from the kings to the ordinary ship's crewmen. Since there was no regular navy in existence in any of the these countries the warfare was tantamount to piracy by any other name.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Highland Scots mostly Catholic while the Lowland Scots who dwelt in cities Presbyterian by religion. Maybe I'm wrong but the Lowland Scots were allied to the English during the wars when there was an attempt to place a Catholic Stuart once again on the throne, something that the Protestant English and Scots were not prepared to tolerate. The resulting "highland clearances"must have been quite okay with the Lowland Scots I would imagine

 

Anyway I'm somewhat fuzzy on all this stuff so I wont ramble on any longer on the subject.

[mjw47]

Harleyman, You are quite correct, the Highland Scots were, and still are, mainly Catholic. Despite which, the British parliament chose to help them through the famine whilst choosing to use it as a weapon against the Irish.

 

The difference being that whilst the Scots had 'bought in' to the United Kingdom/British concept the Irish, being Irish, had this weird crazy idea of being free from outside domination and left in peace to run their own country.

 

This couldn't be allowed and so genocide seemed a good idea at the time.

 

As ever the law of unintended consequences came into play.

 

The Irish are represented around the world, and have far more influence than the size or importance of the country should command.

 

American Presidents involve themselves in Irish affairs not out of the goodness of their hearts, but simply because there are votes to be won.

 

All of this is interesting from a historical perspective but should not still be influencing peoples actions today, but unfortunately with some people it does.

 

Regarding your remark about the high taxes placed on American wheat imports during the 'Famine' that was really immaterial.

 

As I pointed out in my previous post there was sufficient food produced in Ireland at that time and it was exported out of the country under armed guard. That action made it genocide and a stain on Britain's name.

Edited September 25, 2014 by mjw47

[Harleyman]

Harleyman, You are quite correct, the Highland Scots were, and still are, mainly Catholic. Despite which, the British parliament chose to help them through the famine whilst choosing to use it as a weapon against the Irish.

 

The difference being that whilst the Scots had 'bought in' to the United Kingdom/British concept the Irish, being Irish, had this weird crazy idea of being free from outside domination and left in peace to run their own country.

 

This couldn't be allowed and so genocide seemed a good idea at the time.

 

As ever the law of unintended consequences came into play.

 

The Irish are represented around the world, and have far more influence than the size or importance of the country should command.

 

American Presidents involve themselves in Irish affairs not out of the goodness of their hearts, but simply because there are votes to be won.

 

All of this is interesting from a historical perspective but should not still be influencing peoples actions today, but unfortunately with some people it does.

 

Regarding your remark about the high taxes placed on American wheat imports during the 'Famine' that was really immaterial.

 

As I pointed out in my previous post there was sufficient food produced in Ireland at that time and it was exported out of the country under armed guard. That action made it genocide and a stain on Britain's name.

 

I'll have to get off my butt one of these days and take a trip to Ireland. I have some interesting ancestry apparently. There were a couple of great grand uncles who were IRA apparently and they among a several others way back assassinated a landlord on his estate. My mother claimed the landlord was an ancestor of American one time Presidential hopeful Al Gore.

 

Then there were two other grand uncles who were members of the Irish constabulary.

 

I'll bet the four of them never drank in the same pub

[mjw47]

I'll have to get off my butt one of these days and take a trip to Ireland. I have some interesting ancestry apparently. There were a couple of great grand uncles who were IRA apparently and they among a several others way back assassinated a landlord on his estate. My mother claimed the landlord was an ancestor of American one time Presidential hopeful Al Gore.

 

Then there were two other grand uncles who were members of the Irish constabulary.

 

I'll bet the four of them never drank in the same pub

 

Sounds like a similar background to my own, English side, British Army and Navy WW1, Army WW2. Protestant to the point where one of my English great grandfathers was a Congregational Minister.

 

Irish side Catholic, grandfather hid his first cousin, who was an IRA man on the run during the War of Independence.

 

My Godfathers brother was an IRA Commandant who died for Ireland and my father ex British Army and English was fully aware of the fact and had no problem with it.

 

All history and interesting, but not worth shedding blood over at this particular moment in time.

 

You should definitely go to Ireland, it's a wonderful country, and as strange as it may seem in my experience they actually like the English more than any of the other occupants of these Islands.

[Harleyman]

Sounds like a similar background to my own, English side, British Army and Navy WW1, Army WW2. Protestant to the point where one of my English great grandfathers was a Congregational Minister.

 

Irish side Catholic, grandfather hid his first cousin, who was an IRA man on the run during the War of Independence.

 

My Godfathers brother was an IRA Commandant who died for Ireland and my father ex British Army and English was fully aware of the fact and had no problem with it.

 

All history and interesting, but not worth shedding blood over at this particular moment in time.

 

You should definitely go to Ireland, it's a wonderful country, and as strange as it may seem in my experience they actually like the English more than any of the other occupants of these Islands.

 

My English father who was C of E baptized into the Catholic church so that he could marry my mother. He too fought in WW2 and was invalided out with stomach problems just after the war ended. He was very typically Yorkshire, down to earth and with a dry sense of humor. His father always claimed that they were descended from Admiral Blake the great 17th century English admiral, It would be nice if he was right. Everybody should have a distinguished ancestor

 

On my wife's side her great grandfather was among the men who wiped out half the Jesse James-Dalton gang when the gang attempted to rob a bank in Northfield, Minnesota.

[annbaker]

My English father who was C of E baptized into the Catholic church so that he could marry my mother. He too fought in WW2 and was invalided out with stomach problems just after the war ended. He was very typically Yorkshire, down to earth and with a dry sense of humor. His father always claimed that they were descended from Admiral Blake the great 17th century English admiral, It would be nice if he was right. Everybody should have a distinguished ancestor

 

On my wife's side her great grandfather was among the men who wiped out half the Jesse James-Dalton gang when the gang attempted to rob a bank in Northfield, Minnesota.

 

Whilst very interesting Harleyman what has this got to do with Scottish Independence exactly? And it doesn't matter who your ancestors were distinguished or otherwise. What counts is they were your family. My lot since we're sharing family history are a mix of Irish, Scottish Highlands and Scottish Central and Lowlanders. I am related to some who are famous and very well known worldwide, people you will have certainly heard of - but so what? I have proven links to James the 5th of Scotland for example all reasearched and have the docs to prove it but hey so what? Does it make a difference to me or Scotland? - don't think so.What difference does it make to the Scottish Independence debate - other than one of them said on media he wasn't voting ?

Edited September 27, 2014 by annbaker