Phanerothyme Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The basis of the creationist argument is "unknown phenomena"? Good argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 You do know it is just a theory and in time may be proved wrong, and it isn’t the only theory of the universe.You're right, it's not the only theory, but it is the most widely accepted theory, which if proved wrong, will be replaced by another widely accepted theory, which might be proved wrong once again and replaced by yet another widely accepted theory. It's all best guess really innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz1 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 We are here because of the laws of physics. So how did these Laws get put there? Do you believe it was 'chance'/physical necessity? (btw none of these would stand up under scrutiny). Quote: Originally Posted by Ryedo40 View Post I don't really agree with the term 'created'. It implies there is a creator with intent. I see the universe as having no intention or purpose behind it. So, IMO, it hasn't been created. That is fine if that is your belief- but to conclude that still requires a giant leap of faith doesn't it? When you consider the argument from the theist - the fine tuning- it is based on what is observed/studied. Lets just look at some of the parameters of the Universe and then you can ponder yourself if the universe still has NO PURPOSE or INTENTION behind it- like all these just happened to be! 1. strong nuclear force constant if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry 2. weak nuclear force constant if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible 3. gravitational force constant if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry if smaller: stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form 4. electromagnetic force constant if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry 5. ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support if smaller: all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements 6. ratio of electron to proton mass if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry if smaller: same as above 7. ratio of number of protons to number of electrons if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation if smaller: same as above 8. expansion rate of the universe if larger: no galaxies would form if smaller: universe would collapse, even before stars formed 9. entropy level of the universe if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form 10. mass density of the universe if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements 11. velocity of light if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support 12. age of the universe if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed 13. initial uniformity of radiation if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space 14. average distance between galaxies if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit 15. density of galaxy cluster if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material 16. average distance between stars if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form if smaller: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life 17. fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines) if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun 18. decay rate of protons if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life 19. 12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life 20. ground state energy level for 4He if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life if smaller: same as above 21. decay rate of 8Be if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry 22. ratio of neutron mass to proton mass if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes 23. initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation 24. polarity of the water molecule if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result 25. supernovae eruptions if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form 26. white dwarf binaries if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry 27. ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form if smaller: no galaxies would form 28. number of effective dimensions in the early universe if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible if smaller: same result 29. number of effective dimensions in the present universe if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable if larger: same result 30. mass of the neutrino if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense 31. big bang ripples if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form 32. size of the relativistic dilation factor if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly if larger: same result 33. uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable 34. cosmological constant if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars See, the theist has a foundation to base his/her belief from what we know- it is an argument for the case of a Supernatural being- something outside of our world- call it what you want...but to suggest that these laws and fine tuning just 'happened' does not help the position of the atheist- and to just say 'it just is' is frankly a cop out. Good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yes I did. There's that many posts to respond to I'm falling behind a bit. In post #422 I say that you've not replied to a question in an earlier post, which you hadn't. Later, in post #443 you then post a reply, which I then responded to in #449. Now, in post #490 you re-quote my question, and re-quote your reply and announce "yes I did". I think perhaps you should take janie48's advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You're right, it's not the only theory, but it is the most widely accepted theory, which if proved wrong, will be replaced by another widely accepted theory, which might be proved wrong once again and replaced by yet another widely accepted theory. It's all best guess really innit. The only one that isn't a theory is that the universe exists and matter can't be created or destroyed but can change form, so until proven otherwise it’s always existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 So how did these Laws get put there? They were inevitable, infinite possibilities and in this part of the visible universe everything needed for life exists. No magic needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I see Mr Cut'n Paste has returned. It's much more polite, and within SF rules, to provide links to your beloved Islamic Apologist Sites rather than cut'n paste it all here. Like this: http://www.bookofsigns.org/2011/10/fine-tuned-universe/ Easy. See, the theist has a foundation to base his/her belief from what we know- it is an argument for the case of a Supernatural being- something outside of our world- call it what you want...but to suggest that these laws and fine tuning just 'happened' does not help the position of the atheist- and to just say 'it just is' is frankly a cop out. Because "magic man did it" is no cop-out at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 That is fine if that is your belief- but to conclude that still requires a giant leap of faith doesn't it?Believing that the universe could have always existed does not require any faith at all. Something must have either come into being from nothing, or always existed, this must be true. The only thing that we know exists is the universe and everything in it. So the simplest and most reasonable position is that the universe has either always existed or came into being from nothing. There is no reason to suggest anything else exists at all, that is where the leap of faith comes in, when you add god to the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think perhaps you should take janie48's advice. Now don't you start stirring it, just when i've made peace with him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Because "magic man did it" is no cop-out at all. Quite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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