FairDooz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 To Ryedo - I'm really not knocking secular charities, nor denying they exist, nor saying that any charity doesn't use reason, empathy and logic, nor saying that religion is needed for reason, empathy and logic. I'm very pleased to hear that you are engaged in charitable work (as I am, and also an aetheist). I was wishing that there would be more such organisations and volunteers - specifically local organisations, working with underprivleged kids who have been excluded from mainstream education. I'm coming to the end of an 18 month assignment with a 14 year old lad. I first came into touch with him through an organisation that has folded due to lack of funds. Another organisation already involved with him asked me to continue under their supervision which I did. In 3 months time, my circumstances change and I need to move on and bring this work to an end. The new organisation isn't set up to recruit and train volunteers, there's no other volunteer to take my place. There's other kids who would benefit from outreach mentors - they're just not available. Past experience shows that these kids are highly unlikley to return to mainstream education and are more likely to be convicted of crimes leading to the early part of their adult life being spent in jail. And many believe that this is what these kids need - more discipline, more punishment. These kids (lads) come from broken families and end up getting passed around the care system for years and have little or no chance of becoming a part of mainstream society. The usual course of events is distrust of others and alienation leading to hopelessnes, despair and crime. Despite being an aetheist I often drop into churches for periods of quiet reflection. I wish there were more appropriate havens of peace for me and my (non) beliefs. But I'm happy to use what's there and I'm shocked that there is so little respect and understanding (empathy?) for the church. It's bizarre to me that anyone in Sheffield should think that if they go to a church, they'll have a priest condemning them to burn in hell if they don't sign up to a pre-ordained set of beliefs. I'm sure if you trawl the internet you'll be able to find a "fire and brimstone" preacher, but the reality in this country is a very long way from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 We're going round in circles here mate - I was replying to your point - specifically:I don't agree at all, I've never had the "God-shaped hole" that some people talk about, so I do not feel unfulfilled by being without belief in God. It's only going around in circles as long as you ignore your original post, which was about atheism: I'm sure you'd agree though, simply being without something is not that fulfilling. What I am against is a scientists who gloat over their successes over religion and fail to see any benefits within organisations that preach about and care for the welfare of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's only going around in circles as long as you ignore your original post, which was about atheism: How about if I try not to ignore my own posts in future? I'll read it again now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm sure you're not right on that point ... "The Church of England, although an established church, does not receive any direct government support" You'll need to update Wikipedia if you have evidence to the contrary ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England. The optimum word there is direct. http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/facts-stats/funding.aspx If you read the above you'll see lots of indirect ways that the CofE gets funded by the tax payer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryedo40 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Despite being an aetheist I often drop into churches for periods of quiet reflection. I wish there were more appropriate havens of peace for me and my (non) beliefs. But I'm happy to use what's there and I'm shocked that there is so little respect and understanding (empathy?) for the church. If I want a place to sit for quiet reflection, I'll go for a walk in the park or countryside. Sometimes I might sit in a quiet pub, cafe or library. On a couple occasions, I've sat in the Sheffield Cathedral(lovely and quiet there - hardly anyone goes in). There are plenty of appropriate places to sit for quiet reflection. I don't need any dedicated space for my non-belief. It's bizarre to me that anyone in Sheffield should think that if they go to a church, they'll have a priest condemning them to burn in hell if they don't sign up to a pre-ordained set of beliefs. I'm sure if you trawl the internet you'll be able to find a "fire and brimstone" preacher, but the reality in this country is a very long way from that. I don't think that (although I have experienced it at a church I was visiting with a friend around 10 years ago - we couldn't help but laugh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If I want a place to sit for quiet reflection, I'll go for a walk in the park or countryside. Sometimes I might sit in a quiet pub, cafe or library. On a couple occasions, I've sat in the Sheffield Cathedral(lovely and quiet there - hardly anyone goes in). There are plenty of appropriate places to sit for quiet reflection. I don't need any dedicated space for my non-belief. I don't think that (although I have experienced it at a church I was visiting with a friend around 10 years ago - we couldn't help but laugh). You took the words right out of my mouth in addressing both of Fairdooz' points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Excellent - you may not need a dedicated space for reflection, but you have respect for those places and the people who use them. On the secnd point, I suspect anyone preaching hell, fire and damnation is not going to attract a large congregation anywhere in the UK. Indeed churches generally are struggling to attract people whatever their message. Church is increasingly a place for older, middle class women ... http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php I know you don't believe you need any kind of organisation to fulfil the role that a church does for others, but I am concerned about the lack of any kind of moral framework we are leaving for the next generation. By not filling the vacuum that is being left by the church in decline, I fear we are storing up trouble for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I know you don't believe you need any kind of organisation to fulfil the role that a church does for others, but I am concerned about the lack of any kind of moral framework we are leaving for the next generation. . You mean this kind of moral framework? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/13/german-priest-child-abuse_n_1204525.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/child-abuse-priest-jailed-for-21-years-2113856.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15960621 and you wonder why people have lost faith.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The optimum word there is direct. http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/facts-stats/funding.aspx If you read the above you'll see lots of indirect ways that the CofE gets funded by the tax payer. Are you talking about tax efficient giving? The taxpayer doesn't give churches anything - we simply don't tax the charitable donations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 and you wonder why people have lost faith.. There are certainly those who haven't helped their cause. Abuse also happens in schools and families. Wouldn't you say that the existence of abuse in any organisation warrants strengthening moral guidance in society, not abandoning it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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