Science vs Religion

[Ryedo40]

You just can't accept it can you,? that Dawkins may have mellowed a little since he wrote The God Delusion.

I'm always seeing quotes on the internet from 2002 and near that time,its now 2012 now.Do you think everyone should be inflexible?

 

I'm not suggesting he is less of an atheist then he ever was by the way.

 

Janie, have you read the God Delusion. And have you read any of his more recent articles or watched any of the videos he's made? If not, then maybe you should. I think you'll find his views haven't changed; and that the media - especially outlets with some sort of affinity or affiliation with religion - often dishonestly portray him as an unpleasant character or do all they can to misrepresent his views(probably because some of them rely on the BS spewed by others who also haven't read much of, if any, of his material).

 

If you haven't read it, you can have my copy so you can check for yourself.

[CorpusAnimus]

Hi Ryedo ... if you're (I'm/one is) already an atheist, is the God Delusion required reading?

 

[P.S. much appreciated feedback by PM from A.N. Other, but can't reply - your inbox is full ... ]

[Anna B]

I haven't read the entire thread as it's getting very long, but I'd like to throw in my

opinion.

I'm no scientist but I do take an interest in the latest developments, and it seems to be getting harder and harder for the layman to understand. Even top scientists doing all the experimentation say it's hard to get their learned heads round. I'm referring to developments in string theory, multiverses, time slips and loops, and the like.

 

I gather we're in the realms of particles that can be in two places at once, exist and don't exist at the same time, dark matter that cannot be explained and shouldn't exist but does, multiple universes that we can't see but exist alongside ours a hairsbreadth away, blackholes and wormholes that can distort time and distance, and membranes that wave like sheets in the wind and sometimes cross into each other.

 

All I'm saying is that as the real world is proving to be infinitely strange and complex and anything seems possible - why not God? Is 'heaven' or the afterlife merely another dimension? -Another way of expressing a scientific phenomenon? When membranes cross is that when we think we see ghosts? Many religions talk about 'different planes of existence.' Do they know something the scientific world is only just catching up?

 

The more we seek answers, the more questions are raised, and the more obscure the possibilities become. I find it strangely comforting that life and the Universe is far more difficult to unravel than we thought. And also that we are driven to do so in the first place.

 

Are we even meant to know? Just a thought...

[Drone]

I have a interest in Multiverse,only problem is that its pointless to study as it can't be proven but the idea of Multiverse is fascinating

[quisquose]

... and equally a lot of religion that gets criticised is not religion, is anti-religion or plain fraud ...

I'm going to have to disagree with that. It sounds like a variant of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy to me.

 

Who decides which aspects of religion can be correctly criticised, so are not religion?

 

 

Significant or not, I found it very refreshing that Dawkins could share a common purpose with a man of faith.

Fixed it by erasing the irrelevant words.

 

There is no reason why two people, a theist and an atheist, who simply have a different opinion with respect to a single question, cannot share opinions and purposes on a variety of other things.

 

Why single out Dawkins in your statement? Why not Sacks? It seems like you are trying to assert that it is Dawkins who is modifying his position.

 

Sacks said something entirely reasonable, and Dawkins agreed. Are you suggesting that Dawkins wouldn't have agreed previously?

 

Read what Sacks said again, about questioning and knowledge, and respect for truth. If Sacks is speaking for religion, then it is a religion which promises to be more accommodating of science.

 

Amen to that.

[quisquose]

I haven't read the entire thread as it's getting very long, but I'd like to throw in my

opinion.

I'm no scientist but I do take an interest in the latest developments, and it seems to be getting harder and harder for the layman to understand. Even top scientists doing all the experimentation say it's hard to get their learned heads round. I'm referring to developments in string theory, multiverses, time slips and loops, and the like.

 

I gather we're in the realms of particles that can be in two places at once, exist and don't exist at the same time, dark matter that cannot be explained and shouldn't exist but does, multiple universes that we can't see but exist alongside ours a hairsbreadth away, blackholes and wormholes that can distort time and distance, and membranes that wave like sheets in the wind and sometimes cross into each other.

 

All I'm saying is that as the real world is proving to be infinitely strange and complex and anything seems possible - why not God? Is 'heaven' or the afterlife merely another dimension? -Another way of expressing a scientific phenomenon? When membranes cross is that when we think we see ghosts? Many religions talk about 'different planes of existence.' Do they know something the scientific world is only just catching up?

 

The more we seek answers, the more questions are raised, and the more obscure the possibilities become. I find it strangely comforting that life and the Universe is far more difficult to unravel than we thought. And also that we are driven to do so in the first place.

 

Are we even meant to know? Just a thought...

 

Why not god?

 

Well no belief in god doesn't rule it out, and all the atheists I know are also agnostic.

 

My atheism comes after considering all the gods that have been proposed to me. They've all been simple creations, jealous and far too concerned with my sex life. I don't believe in any of those.

 

As science leads to an ever more complicated universe with more questions than answers, it just makes all these gods seem even more simplistic.

 

A Muslim friend of mine once pointed to an ant on the floor and said that it was no more aware of my existence than I was of Allah, but I still existed and so did Allah. But I don't expect that ant to worship me, and it doing so would be pointless, I replied. Any god that needs worship and prayers has been invented to satisfy a man made need to do so.

 

As an atheist I dismiss all those gods that I know about, but I cannot dismiss what I don't know.

 

Atheism is portrayed as a dogmatic position by those that want it to appear so, but it is the very opposite.

 

The words of David Hume below apply.

[Ryedo40]

Religions make an attempt to bring together a wider community, especially at the significant moments of our lives - marriages, births and deaths.

 

I agree that religion makes an attempt to bring a wider community together, but this isn't always a positive thing(as we've seen in places like Africa, Ireland, Israel, Palestine, India, Pakistan, etc.)

 

Religion has pretty much held the monopoly on marriage, births and deaths – although in recent years, because they are now permitted, people are starting to opt for non-religious ceremonies(civil & humanist marriages, naming ceremonies, and funerals).

 

Religion is better at dealing with emotions, values, codes of conduct, public ceremonies.

 

I don't agree that religion is better at public ceremonies – only that religion probably has more of them. As for values or codes of conduct, I wouldn't say religion is particular good at those either.

 

Nobody turns to a scientist for words of comfort when a child goes missing or a public servant gets killed in the line of duty.

 

I'm sure some may turn to a religion while others may turn towards dodgy mediums & psychics. While it may give some sort of comfort, it's not always a good thing. Religion, while it may be one of its strengths, isn't necessary for providing comfort.

 

Science might have answers as to why we've evolved in certain ways biologically and psychologically, but still can't tell us what to do with our free will (or illusion of free will).

 

Well, if religion is telling you what to do with your free will, then you are not really utilising your “free will”. That said, I think science can and does guide – at least to some extent – our lives.

 

Religion makes an attempt to guide us morally in our own interests and the interests of those we love and the wider community.

 

As I previously stated, this isn't always a good thing. Also, sometimes the morally or values religion encourages are flawed - or based on some sort of irrational bias. Likewise, it's sometimes so bad that, by today's standards, you'd get arrested for behaving in such a manner.

 

I'd love to share a story about behaviour that I've witnessed recently. Unfortunately I can't. People will get hurt emotionally. Religions generally consider the behaviour I'm talking about to be a*sin. Scientists might explain that behaviour in an academic way, but don't condone or condemn.

 

I've think we've all probably witnessed behaviour that we disagree with – or done things we've later regretted.

 

Whatever that behaviour was, I'm sure scientists will either condone or condemn that behaviour by using their own reason, logic and/or subjective point of view(just as the founders of religion may have condoned or not condoned behaviours using their own subjective points of view).

 

I was asked to participate in that behaviour. I found a way to get myself out of it (It wasn't illegal, just immoral). It would have been easier if everybody knew I was a Christian, but I'm not. What I couldn't say is "sorry count me out I'm a scientist" and especially I couldn't say "count me out I'm an atheist" because for many people being an atheist gives you more of a green light to bend the rules, because after all, who's judging you?

 

Why do you feel the need to say “sorry, count me out I'm [insert label here]”. Why not just say I want nothing to do with it and walk away?

 

I couldn't say "count me out I'm an atheist" because for many people being an atheist gives you more of a green light to bend the rules, because after all, who's judging you?

 

So you don't judge your own behaviour – and your community doesn't judge the way you behave? Also, do you have any statistical evidence showing that atheist behave in the way you claim? I don't think you do. In fact, I think if you look around, you'll find far more religious people believing their god gives them the green light to behave in a way that both you and I disagree with.

 

I don't want to reinvent God, but I do think religions have much to contribute in how we should behave to make the world a better place.

 

Religions have been around for thousands of extremely violent years. So it's not done a good job so far.

 

And to add to that, and evidence does seem to support this, countries where religion is waning seem to be far more peaceful than countries where religion is thriving.

[Marx]

I haven't read the entire thread as it's getting very long, but I'd like to throw in my

opinion.

I'm no scientist but I do take an interest in the latest developments, and it seems to be getting harder and harder for the layman to understand. Even top scientists doing all the experimentation say it's hard to get their learned heads round. I'm referring to developments in string theory, multiverses, time slips and loops, and the like.

 

I gather we're in the realms of particles that can be in two places at once, exist and don't exist at the same time, dark matter that cannot be explained and shouldn't exist but does, multiple universes that we can't see but exist alongside ours a hairsbreadth away, blackholes and wormholes that can distort time and distance, and membranes that wave like sheets in the wind and sometimes cross into each other.

 

All I'm saying is that as the real world is proving to be infinitely strange and complex and anything seems possible - why not God? Is 'heaven' or the afterlife merely another dimension? -Another way of expressing a scientific phenomenon? When membranes cross is that when we think we see ghosts? Many religions talk about 'different planes of existence.' Do they know something the scientific world is only just catching up?

 

The more we seek answers, the more questions are raised, and the more obscure the possibilities become. I find it strangely comforting that life and the Universe is far more difficult to unravel than we thought. And also that we are driven to do so in the first place.

 

Are we even meant to know? Just a thought...

 

Would you like God to exist? How much do you want the 'afterlife'? In fact, there are thousands of Gods you can choose from. Most of them are now dead but once, rivers of virgin blood flowed in their honour. Funny how things change. Does your God have a white beard and hate gays or would he just be some wooly supernatural creator of everything?

 

Unfortunately for some, the scientific approach really doesn't sit well with what people would like to believe. That is why faith is such a pre-requisite for all this God stuff. There just isn't any evidence, none at all. Sorry.

[Kersplosh]

GOD = DEATH IN ITS NAME.....

[janie48]

Janie, have you read the God Delusion. And have you read any of his more recent articles or watched any of the videos he's made? If not, then maybe you should. I think you'll find his views haven't changed; and that the media - especially outlets with some sort of affinity or affiliation with religion - often dishonestly portray him as an unpleasant character or do all they can to misrepresent his views(probably because some of them rely on the BS spewed by others who also haven't read much of, if any, of his material).

 

If you haven't read it, you can have my copy so you can check for yourself.

 

No Ryedo i havn't read the God Delusion thats the one i was referring to in my previous post,though i know he has written others.

I've seen a few interviews on tv and the odd debate and video.

The most recent TV appearence was the one i referred to in the thread i started on Enertainment/chat (link on the post above) which is the same one as Corpus quoted from.

 

Thanks for the offer of the book, a friend has a copy actually but i havn't time to read it yet,i've got piles of unread books at present,i used to be a quick reader but lately it seems to take me much longer.I think its because i've been spending too much time reading stuff on the internet,i loose track of the time sometimes,and it isn't all that long ago since i was criticising others for doing the same.

I'm having to cut down now though,because i have some other commitments that will have to take priority,thats why i've been making the most of it.

When i get round to reading the book,i expect i will be better informed about a great deal and that will be good,but it won't take away my belief,like i've said before it has its weak stages at times,but remains firmly rooted whatever i read or experience.Some things will always remain a mystery but i accept that.