Science vs Religion

[PaliRichard]

What would happen then if you broke the rules, would you be exiled?, I mean traditionally would you be or would you be given the chance of making it up, what would happen

 

Would you be able to tell me alittle bit about who Zen is?

 

No you wouldn't be exiled.

 

You don't have to follow the rules, but going back to what I was saying to Chris if you don't your only identifying with being a Buddhist philosophically, being 'Buddhist' is active, so by not following them you're not really being Buddhist (although you may still identify yourself as being from a philosophical position).

 

Not following the rules is akin to looking at a map of Paris, follwing them is akin to walking around Paris. There is no 'punishment' for looking at the map, and making the journey is totally voluntarily, there is no divine mandate that orders you to go (or even look at the map). So there is no 'making it up' to do, you either follow them or you don't.

 

The Zen question is a little more difficult.

 

It comes from the Chinese 'Ch'an', which comes from the Sanskrit 'Dhyana', which comes from the Pali 'Jhana', but the first three cases are somewhat (mildly) corrupt as they have come to mean simply 'awareness' or 'meditation', whereas Jhana is a series of ever subtler 'states' of awareness.

 

Generally speaking in common usage Zen means absorption in a meditative state, and the Zen 'school' of Buddhism focuses on this aspect of the Buddhas teachings.

[Drone]

Yes I understand abit better now, do your do yoga, it seems like your trying to connect within your inner spirit, is that right?

[PaliRichard]

Yes I understand abit better now, do your do yoga, it seems like your trying to connect within your inner spirit, is that right?

 

Again that is difficult to answer in a black and white way.

 

The easy answer is no we don't do Yoga (although many Buddhist schools do similar excercises to Chi Gung which is essentially Yogic in nature, but it was never prescribed by the Buddha) and we are not trying to 'connect' to anything.

 

The Buddha never taught we have an 'inner' nature to connect to, only that what we percieve as ourselves is a very 'gross' way of looking at things, if we understand the nature of self (or not self, but self is just as good for the purpose of this), suffering and impermanance we can see things as they are, rather than 'creating' mental ideas of the world.

 

So technically it's not connecting to an inner nature, just realising, or being aware, of the nature we already have.

[Drone]

Ok only problem I have with the budda is that he says you can do your own teachings but you must follow his also, why is this? So when you say you don't follow the rules, is this what you mean by only identifying philosophically..

[PaliRichard]

Ok only problem I have with the budda is that he says you can do your own teachings but you must follow his also, why is this? So when you say you don't follow the rules, is this what you mean by only identifying philosophically..

 

I'm not sure the Buddha says you can do your own teachings or that you must follow his.

 

There are quite a few cases of the Buddha being very quick to reprimand those who claimed to be his followers but misrepresenting what he taught. I think bearing this in mind we can safely say he didn't accept his followers having their own teachings.

 

Regarding the second point though he never said that either you must follow his teachings (if you didn't already) or that the teachings were exclusively his. In fact in essence he said he stumbled on enlightenment and the method was pre existant to him. He said that as long as certain elements were met anyone could achieve Nibbana, you don't have to be 'Buddhist'. The only thing he said counter to this was that there was no one who was his contempory who taught the correct elements, not that the elements couldn't be found (or practiced) by others.

 

Essentially if you don't follow the teachings (which include the rules) you are only philosophizing, which according to the Buddha is counter productive, in essence you can know everything there is to know about Buddhism academically or philosophically but unless you practice the dhamma (the teaching) you will never 'realize' nibbana.

 

We were recently talking about colour on this forum, and in a way it's similar to that, if you are blind you can know academically everything there is to know about how light works and it's properties but you will never have direct knowledge, that is 'experience' colour.

[Drone]

Yeh how long you been a Buddhist?

 

Or how did you become one?..where was you born richard

[RootsBooster]

Religions make an attempt to bring together a wider community, especially at the significant moments of our lives - marriages, births and deaths.

 

Religion is better at dealing with emotions, values, codes of conduct, public ceremonies. Nobody turns to a scientist for words of comfort when a child goes missing or a public servant gets killed in the line of duty.

 

Science might have answers as to why we've evolved in certain ways biologically and psychologically, but still can't tell us what to do with our free will (or illusion of free will).

 

Religion makes an attempt to guide us morally in our own interests and the interests of those we love and the wider community.

 

I'd love to share a story about behaviour that I've witnessed recently. Unfortunately I can't. People will get hurt emotionally. Religions generally consider the behaviour I'm talking about to be a sin. Scientists might explain that behaviour in an academic way, but don't condone or condemn.

 

I was asked to participate in that behaviour. I found a way to get myself out of it (It wasn't illegal, just immoral). It would have been easier if everybody knew I was a Christian, but I'm not. What I couldn't say is "sorry count me out I'm a scientist" and especially I couldn't say "count me out I'm an atheist" because for many people being an atheist gives you more of a green light to bend the rules, because after all, who's judging you?

 

I'm not the first person to wish there was a God despite believing there's not.

"If God did not exist, one would have to invent him. I want my attorney, my tailor, my servants, even my wife to believe in God, and I think I shall then be robbed and cuckolded less often." Voltaire

 

I don't want to reinvent God, but I do think religions have much to contribute in how we should behave to make the world a better place.

 

The "strengths" you have given examples of only apply to believers though. It can also be argued that these strengths are more like conveniences of religion.

 

Imagine for a moment that there was a city whose society was totally free of any religions. You're the embassador for religion, wanting to introduce it to this society. What could religion possibly bring to the table that the society doesn't already have?

[PaliRichard]

Yeh how long you been a Buddhist?

 

Or how did you become one?..where was you born richard

 

I've 'studied' Buddhism for about twelve years, but I've practiced it (properly, adhering to the rules and following the teachings - (I made plenty of mistakes and philosophies of my own in the early period of my interest in Buddhism) for only about six.

 

I can't recall 'becoming' Buddhist, I first encountered it through martial arts, it, shall we say, grew on me so there is no definitive point at which I became Buddhist.

 

I'm Scottish, but beein in Sheffield for ever and a day.

[Drone]

I've 'studied' Buddhism for about twelve years, but I've practiced it (properly, adhering to the rules and following the teachings - (I made plenty of mistakes and philosophies of my own in the early period of my interest in Buddhism) for only about six.

 

I can't recall 'becoming' Buddhist, I first encountered it through martial arts, it, shall we say, grew on me so there is no definitive point at which I became Buddhist.

 

I'm Scottish, but beein in Sheffield for ever and a day.

Yeh were your friends who you met in martial arts Buddhists and you kinda went into it along the way...

 

You say you don't get anything out of it though but you must get something to strictly follow it or why do you bother with the rules side of it?..genuine question this

[PaliRichard]

Yeh were your friends who you met in martial arts Buddhists and you kinda went into it along the way...[/Quote]

 

No, the discipline in which I was training was linked to Buddhism so Meditation and Buddhist Philosophy was part of that training, at first I took it with a pinch of salt, but the more I practiced the more I noticed positive changes occurring within me.

 

You say you don't get anything out of it though but you must get something to strictly follow it or why do you bother with the rules side of it?..genuine question this

 

I don't get anything 'out of it' in a technical sense, not like I put money in and get a prize, or I'm good and go to heaven kind of way, it's not a reward card.

 

My life is now simpler, with much less suffering, like I said before the rules facilitate this, I've understood Buddhism both Philosophically and directly through the 'practice', and until I did the latter I didn't really 'get' it (although I thought I did). I think that's the best way of putting it, I 'got it', not got something 'from it'.

 

To put a different spin on it without giving a direct analogy it's about playing the game, not winning.