quisquose Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well, that's rather the point. Claiming that everything must have a cause just sends you into an infinite regressive loop, or forces you to contradict yourself; ergo, not everything must have a cause. Once you've accepted that - as you inevitably must - then it's pointless looking for what caused the Universe to pop into existence 14 billion years or so ago. It seems to me that you and Mr Smith are arguing for the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 It seems to me that you and Mr Smith are arguing for the same thing. MrSmith is claiming that the Universe has existed forever; there is no evidence, nor any logical argument, to support that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 It seems to me that you and Mr Smith are arguing for the same thing. Slight difference, I don't know that nothing is possible, so I cann't assume the universe popped into existence, it must just be and always has been and the big bang if it happened was an event in the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 MrSmith is claiming that the Universe has existed forever; there is no evidence, nor any logical argument, to support that claim. You have to assume that which we don't know is possible, that’s not much different to assuming there is a God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 MrSmith is claiming that the Universe has existed forever; there is no evidence, nor any , to support that claim. The logical argument and evidence doesn't support the possibility of nothing be possible. If we don't know that nothing is possible why assume it is just to prove your point, that’s what theists do with their God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 MrSmith is claiming that the Universe has existed forever; there is no evidence, nor any logical argument, to support that claim. The alternative is the infinite regressive loop isn't it? Or are you and Mr Smith simply talking about the universe and the known universe separately and simultaneously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloomdido Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 That's not evidence. If I define a word that means "the infallible authority of the Flying Spaghetti Monster," that is not proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It just means I made up a word. The FSM never wrote a book telling people how to live and not to wear mixed fibres. Therefore it cannot be a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The FSM never wrote a book telling people how to live and not to wear mixed fibres. Therefore it cannot be a god. I can produce that tomorrow if you want, and I can produce any number of learned Pastafarian scholars to argue that it is the true, irrefutable work of the FSM. Their arguments will be every bit as valid as those of Islamic scholars who claim that the Qu'ran is the true, irrefutable work of Allah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The alternative is the infinite regressive loop isn't it? Or are you and Mr Smith simply talking about the universe and the known universe separately and simultaneously? That does seem to be the problem; some people define the universe as everything that exists from the point of the big bank. If the big bang is the cause of the universe then it either came from nothing, and we don’t know if nothing is possible, or it came from something that already existed, which we know is possible. So either this something is called something else or it is still the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 That does seem to be the problem; some people define the universe as everything that exists from the point of the big bank. If the big bang is the cause of the universe ... The Big Bang is not the cause of the Universe; the Big Bang is the Universe. There was no initial cause. (There can't be an initial cause, for reasons explained above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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