six45ive Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 What am I googling, sorry thinking? http://listverse.com/2009/05/17/10-british-disasters-from-recent-times/ Munich Aberfan Zeebrugge Piper Alpha Lockerbie Hillsborough Marchioness Dunblane Paddington 7/7 Remembering Hillsborough: At 3.08pm, all the civic, cathedral and church bells will ring 96 times. People still turn to the church at times of tragedy. Services of remembrance are vital public services. There's not a secular organisation that is capable of fulfilling these functions - is there? Prince William and Kate Middleton down the registry office? Again, I don't see your point. Will and Kate's wedding was a wonderful relaxed, stylish event in very grand, ornate, beautiful surroundings. I enjoyed it thoroughly. You seem to be argung from the position that secularists want to take all this away when nobody's said anything of the sort. I think you've simply projected what you think atheism or secularism is and are still arguing from this blindspot which you don't seem to be able to overcome. Churches, Mosques, Temples or whatever will, and should, always be there.....even if they're nothing more than buildings of outstanding beauty that do nothing more than remind us of our naive superstitious past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Again, I don't see your point. Will and Kate's wedding was a wonderful relaxed, stylish event in very grand, ornate, beautiful surroundings. I enjoyed it thoroughly. You seem to be argung from the position that secularists want to take all this away when nobody's said anything of the sort. So we can engage with the practical aspects of church ceremony, but have nothing to do with those who maintain the churches on any other level? I think you've simply projected what you think atheism or secularism is and are still arguing from this blindspot which you don't seem to be able to overcome. ??? I'm am atheist ... Churches, Mosques, Temples or whatever will, and should, always be there.....even if they're nothing more than buildings of outstanding beauty that do nothing more than remind us of our naive superstitious past. And if they do become museums only, what will they be replaced with for births, deaths marriages, state occasions and services of remembrance for national tragedies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 What am I googling, sorry thinking? http://listverse.com/2009/05/17/10-british-disasters-from-recent-times/ Munich Aberfan Zeebrugge Piper Alpha Lockerbie Hillsborough Marchioness Dunblane Paddington 7/7 Remembering Hillsborough: At 3.08pm, all the civic, cathedral and church bells will ring 96 times. People still turn to the church at times of tragedy. Services of remembrance are vital public services. There's not a secular organisation that is capable of fulfilling these functions - is there? Prince William and Kate Middleton down the registry office? You mean SOME people still turn to the church at times of tragedy. Many more don't. The people who go will be either paying respects to lost lives or praying. The former can be done anywhere by anyone and the latter will only apply to theists. Oh and there was a royal wedding. How does any of this help with morals etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 And if they do become museums only, what will they be replaced with for births, deaths marriages, state occasions and services of remembrance for national tragedies? If all churches and places of worship became museums only, it would probably mean that organised religion has come to an end, which means that those of faith would be happy to worship/pray to their God wherever they want. I would imagine a beautiful garden or woodland walk would be the best place (IMO). Births, would still take place in hospitals, Christenings? Without the organised religion it wouldn't be necessary. Marriages? Could still take place in the many beautiful non-religious locations in Britain. I got married at Wortley hall, it was lovely. Deaths? I'd like a funeral in the Peak District, with a cremation afterward. Services of rememberance and national tragedies? Mostly televised things these days, people could remember and grieve from home or local community halls, or go out into the open air and remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can see I've not persuaded you (I worked that out a while back!) and neither have you persuaded me. I still believe there are areas where atheists can work with theists, ie those who believe things that we don't, but who do share many of our values and morals and who are capable of bringing communities together at times when we reflect upon "matters of ultimate significance". Go on, let's wrap it up now ... your final words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So we can engage with the practical aspects of church ceremony, but have nothing to do with those who maintain the churches on any other level? No. We can do whatever we like in a free society. ??? I'm am atheist ... Which is simply about having no belief in any god claims. It doesn't mean that you can't interact with religious people in any way that you see fit. And if they do become museums only, what will they be replaced with for births, deaths marriages, state occasions and services of remembrance for national tragedies? I never said that they should become museums only. St George's church is a university lecture theatre for example. What will replace them? Nothing. What will compliment them is the other public and private facilities that already exist for these occasions such as parks, pubs, gardens, homes or wherever the individuals concerned wish to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can see I've not persuaded you (I worked that out a while back!) and neither have you persuaded me. I'm not trying to persuade you. It may sound arrogant but I'm simply telling you the way it is. I still believe there are areas where atheists can work with theists, ie those who believe things that we don't, but who do share many of our values and morals and who are capable of bringing communities together at times when we reflect upon "matters of ultimate significance". And for the umpteenth time we do work with theists even when we're being critical, demeaning, belittling etc. We share the same moral values because they are an innate part of what it means to be human.....highly evolved beings who need these values to progress and live in relative peace with each other for the mutual benefit of all and wouldn't have advanced as much as we have if we didn't have them 'built in' to our psychology. Go on, let's wrap it up now ... your final words? I thought you wanted a dialogue that begins with looking at the 10 commandments? I'm still waiting for your response regarding explaining how or why we should follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I can see I've not persuaded you (I worked that out a while back!) and neither have you persuaded me. I haven't tried to persuade you of anything. All I've done is point out that the examples you gave are nothing new to people without religion. I still believe there are areas where atheists can work with theists, ie those who believe things that we don't, but who do share many of our values and morals and who are capable of bringing communities together at times when we reflect upon "matters of ultimate significance". Of course there are! I haven't said otherwise! Theists and atheists have been working together for years without any problems. It's Fundamentalists and anti-theists you might have a problem with. Go on, let's wrap it up now ... your final words? Final words? As the examples you have given are not unique to religion, it takes religion out of the equation, it is not necessary. When you start a thread about how we should encourage moral teachings in general, let me know. Organised religion has too much hypocrisy and contradiction within it's teachings (when you look into it) to be regarded as a good method of teaching. The old "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't tend to go down too well with most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I thought you wanted a dialogue that begins with looking at the 10 commandments? I'm still waiting for your response regarding explaining how or why we should follow them. Hah! He got me with than one too, the little trickster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think we're still at cross purposes a lot of the time six45ive. The 10 commandments business was a sidetrack (although it was me who brought them into the conversation, but not as a core part of the issue). I do appreciate dialogue and particularly enjoyed our meeting last week, but it's also nice to come to a conclusion on matters and move on. I've bought a couple of books as a result of this thread and have a 900 pager on its way, so I'll be taking some time out now. Will be around sometime soon and hope to meet up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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