FairDooz Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 it's well understood that, historically, religions have always hijacked the methods that make a particular society run smoothly and have claimed them as their own See answer to RB above - de Botton is talking about those methods. I'm not clear if you're referring to these methods or someting else ... I've never claimed that you can. [win an argument just by being right] That's simply a baseless assumption you're making about me as an atheist and my position ... It wasn't a comment that was aimed directly at you (I was careful to use "many" and "eg myself"). I'm trying hard not to make this personal and to maintain respect. I'll take some time to watch the vid you posted ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I do think straw dogs offers an interesting perspective, especially on the notion of derived moralities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'm reminded of the maxim 'if you could reason with religious people then there would be no religious people'. [oh, I know some people hate smileys, but sometimes they're a useful shortcut] Speaking of shortcuts - are there any shortcuts we could take to connect the misguided amongst us to a more rational, reasonable, moral, fair world? And when I say amongst us that's not a barbed comment referring to anyone here. I'm thinking more widely. (For example the 14 year old lad I'm mentoring). Here's a thought - wouldn't it be great if we could learn from religion and have alongside all those holy days, one day a year, every year to celebrate science and reason? When de Botton talks about learning from religion, he's not talking about replacing the body of scientific knowledge with scriptures that cannot be examined, challenged and updated. Nor is he talking about replacing the scientific method with something more loose and subjective. I think he does recognise that religion has made connection with people on a level that works, and that is something we can learn and apply without compromising a love of reason. We don't need to be "single club golfers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I do think straw dogs offers an interesting perspective, especially on the notion of derived moralities. Seeing as it's unlikely that anyone's going to go out and immediately buy the book and read it overnight in order to respond to that, in the interests of this discussion, do you think perhaps you could put forward that perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 See answer to RB above - de Botton is talking about those methods. I'm not clear if you're referring to these methods or someting else ... I'm talking about every society where religion is the main cultural motivating factor. Basically you don't need a religion to have ritual, community, great art and architecture, a sense of wonder, pilgrimage or anything else that religion claims exclusively to be their own. It wasn't a comment that was aimed directly at you (I was careful to use "many" and "eg myself"). I'm trying hard not to make this personal and to maintain respect. I'll take some time to watch the vid you posted ... I don't care about whether you're aiming it at me or not.....I'm not important, the message is. As for the video, it's only about 2 minutes long and my view on educating people aligns exactly with Tyson's view point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 ... and it's why I love showing this clip of Neil de Grass Tyson rebuking Dawkins for his, shall we say lack of nuance, when it comes to Dawkins' 'sharpness of teeth'. (Great response from Dawkins btw but Tyson was still spot on with what he had to say.) Excellent! I had feared the clip was longer and drier and had put off watching it. This should be known as the "Dawkins defence". (You think I'm bad? Wait till you here about this guy ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I do think straw dogs offers an interesting perspective, especially on the notion of derived moralities. If you understand anything about evolution it should be fairly obvious that our own morality is just a more evolved version of the metaphysical structures that are innate in other social creatures, such as wolves, that enable them to work together for their common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'm talking about every society where religion is the main cultural motivating factor. Basically you don't need a religion to have ritual, community, great art and architecture, a sense of wonder, pilgrimage or anything else that religion claims exclusively to be their own. No, you don't need religion for these things. However, as religions decline, a vacuum develops. Can we be complacent about the potential consequences of further austerity? Are riots more or less likley if we had a strong church? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14520074 In the absence of a strong church, does it fall upon the rest of society to present a strong moral framework to the disadvantaged and disillusioned - those who perceive those at the top as screwing the rest of society for all they can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Does repetiton of a lesson help? (see video) Schools already do this, why look to religion for it? Does having "holy" days in the calendar not hep to reconnect the faithful, year in, year out? (see video) Some, maybe. But we can have days off and get together without religion. Does having shrines and pilgrimages and carols not give physical and emotional connection and the memory of a shared experience? (see video)We can have physical/emotional connections and the memory of a shared experience without religion. You're still bringing nothing to the table. If we were inclined to tackle "hypocrisy, contradiction and inconsistency" then doing it from a purely intelectual standpoint only is going to have very little impact. Right, here you've taken something I said and turned it into something else. I haven't said anything about tackling the hypocrisy, contradiction and inconsistency within religious teachings, purely because I DISREGARD religious teachings. So I have no interest in fixing it. However, your comment "doing it from a purely intelectual standpoint only is going to have very little impact" is wrong I believe. An intellectual approach is the BEST way of dealing with the illogical and irrational. If it's not good enough for you, combine it with a practical approach. What else would you suggest to deal with these issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 See answer to RB above - de Botton is talking about those methods. I'm not clear if you're referring to these methods or someting else ... That answer was devoid of substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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