What is Aetheism 2.0?

[FairDooz]

Fairdooz is just grabbing at straws. I'm sure he doesn't need telling that the great depression of the 1920's/30's saw huge social deprivation that makes today's problems seem pretty insignificant. And all of this at a time when religion was much more dominant in society. But, according to Fairdooz, we're less fairdooz today because of the lack of religion in society.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, get religion man, it's the answer to the economic crisis

 

BTW are you still up for that pint? We can have a drink to inequality and make plans to become bankers, and go and burn the Occupy Sheffield tents.

 

On the other hand we might have got all this crap out of our system and talk about women and football?

[six45ive]

Are you supporting and forgiving or critical and unforgiving?

 

Personally I'm all of those things (and a whole lot more) at various times in my life depending on the situation and the people I'm dealing with.

 

My personal experience of anyone with faith has always been very positive.

My partner's friend went on the Alpha course a few years ago and became a born again Christian. She doesn't push it on you, she's just different, calmer, mellower, sees things a different way, and went to do voluntary work in The Gambia. She is somebody who cares and makes a difference. There's no way in a million years I'm going to start pulling her faith apart just because I have a science background, just because I'm an atheist, just because I don't have her faith and in all likelihood never will.

 

Nobody's saying you should.

 

I like her attitude, who she is and what she does and how she contributes to others.

 

I assume that would be the case whether she was religious or not?

 

On that experience alone I have a very positive view of religion and the religious even though I will never share their faith. I don't care what's happened in history to put others off religion, I am making my judgements on my personal experience of those who practice their faith today.

 

You sound like one of those theists who praise god for healing their sick relative when it's the doctors and modern medicine that's done the healing. Misdirected praise is one of the most nauseating things that religion allows people to get away with. It would be better if you had a positive view of the woman that she found something (albeit a delusion) that made her a better person. On top of that, if she'd have become a humanist she might have become an even better person.

 

 

Maybe you've met inspirational characters like that who do not have faith and who reinforce your non-beliefs, your attitudes and your actions. That's cool too.

 

Yes, many many more, mainly because they have to work things out for themselves and give it some thought. Their morals aren't handed lazily to them on a plate. Did you not watch the video on the superiority of secular morality? If not here it is again.

http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/matt-dillahunty-the-superiority-of-secular-morality-4192742

 

But, if those of faith and those without faith have similar values and concerns and are prepared to do something for the good of all, why not work together as Alain de Botton was proposing?

 

That wasn't the main gist of de Bottom's video as well you know but who says we don't work together? Of course we do but it doesn't mean that you can't have strong disagreements while you're working together as well as understanding that one group has it right and the other has it wrong.

[six45ive]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, get religion man, it's the answer to the economic crisis

 

BTW are you still up for that pint? We can have a drink to inequality and make plans to become bankers, and go and burn the Occupy Sheffield tents.

 

On the other hand we might have got all this crap out of our system and talk about women and football?

 

Yep, still up for it:thumbsup:

Don't really have an interest in football, bankers, or the occupy Sheffield people. Atheism's my thang and discussing religion with people, so it'll be good to get a handle on why a self proclaimed atheist is so apologetic about religion. I'm intrigued and can't wait to meet you.

[FairDooz]

That wasn't the main gist of de Bottom's video as well you know but who says we don't work together?

 

??? I'll have to view it again to get an alternative gist - and will view your video link - but not now mate - to bed!

[six45ive]

??? I'll have to view it again to get an alternative gist - and will view your video link - but not now mate - to bed!

 

Same here.....nighty night.

Quick edit.....please try to view the video before our meet if you can. Thanks.

[Ryedo40]

I'd rather work with people who have a positive image of others, who look for the good, and who are prepared to forgive, encourage and support

 

And as Six45ive stated, I'm all of those things (and a whole lot more) at various times in my life depending on the situation and the people I'm dealing with.

 

Now I know that it is possible that you will accuse those "of faith" of being the latter

 

Not at all. You see, unlike you, I don't lump everyone into black and white boxes of "faith" & "no-faith". I accept that people come in different shades of grey whether they have faith or not. I also accept that religions come in different shades of grey - even when they come under the same label.

 

Are you supporting and forgiving or critical and unforgiving?

 

Depending on the situation, I'm probably all those things.

 

My personal experience of anyone with faith has always been very positive.

 

That not always been my experience.

 

My partner's friend went on the Alpha course a few years ago and became a born again Christian. She doesn't push it on you, she's just different, calmer, mellower, sees things a different way, and went to do voluntary work in The Gambia. She is somebody who cares and makes a difference.

 

Good for her. I've never been on an Alpha course and, most of my life, I've been caring, calm and tried to make a difference. Likewise, the majority of my family and friends are the same: we've all worked and volunteered for charities at some time in our lives and/or worked fields providing social/health care. The majority of my family/friends are atheists. Those that aren't are token Christians(in name only) who haven't given religion/beliefs/lack of, etc much thought.

 

There's no way in a million years I'm going to start pulling her faith apart just because I have a science background, just because I'm an atheist, just because I don't have her faith and in all likelihood never will.

 

I wouldn't expect you to. But just remember, her faith is not identical to everyone else's faith who come under the label of Christian - or whatever religion.

 

On that experience alone I have a very positive view of religion and the religious even though I will never share their faith. I don't care what's happened in history to put others off religion, I am making my judgements on my personal experience of those who practice their faith today.

 

I've also had positive experiences with people who found religion; likewise, I've also known people who have turned into intolerant, ignorant bigots.

 

Maybe you've met inspirational characters like that who do not have faith and who reinforce your non-beliefs, your attitudes and your actions. That's cool too.

 

I've met good and bad from all walks of life. But my non-belief is based on life experience, studying history, religion, politics - and bits of philosophy, science and psychology.

 

But, if those of faith and those without faith have similar values and concerns and are prepared to do something for the good of all, why not work together as Alain de Botton was proposing?

 

A great many of us do work together - often without even realising it. The only time I really have a problem is when they impose their beliefs on me(whether personally or through law) - or when they seek privilege through law and government that is denied to others; for example: free transport to faith-schools while those who don't attend faith-school get nothing; free parking on Sundays for those who attend church while others who use car parks on Sundays get nothing... I could go on.

[RootsBooster]

Did you watch the Alain de Botton video I linked to at the start? If you did, and if you read any of the points I've made then I have nothing to add.

 

 

 

If you have watched the video and you don't agree with the thrust of the argument and my support of it, then there's nothing more to say.

 

I'm very happy not to have your support, just a decision.

 

That's cool.

 

Okay I've watched it fully now. He isn't saying anything original and for some reason he views religion through rose-tinted glasses.

 

He is saying we should "learn from religion" but like yourself, he doesn't give an example of anything that religion can provide that doesn't already exist outside of it.

Are you just agreeing with his speech or have you thought about this yourself? If the latter, then the question still remains, just what exactly do you think religion can give us that we don't already have outside of it?

[FairDooz]

OK Ryedo, a fair repsonse on the whole. I won't nitpick on bits that caused me to raise an eyebrow. Hope the following is not perceived as such ...

 

A great many of us do work together - often without even realising it.

 

Yeah, sure. The video was advocating making a conscious effort to work together ...

 

The only time I really have a problem is when they impose their beliefs on me (whether personally or through law)

 

I can't say that I've experienced anyone trying to impose their religious beliefs on me ... although I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

 

I've had exceptionally polite Jehovah's witnesses come to the door - the only imposition upon me is to take a leaflet from them ... I've walked past "bible bashers" in Fargate ... that's about it really ...

 

Even though we have the CofE there's no imposition in law to conform.

 

or when they seek privilege through law and government that is denied to others; for example: free transport to faith-schools while those who don't attend faith-school get nothing; free parking on Sundays for those who attend church while others who use car parks on Sundays get nothing... I could go on.

 

I 've never seen any exemption from parking charges for attending church. Is there something like the blue badge scheme? Is there really a different rule about free transport to faith schools? In any event I wouldn't take that to be sufficient grounds to snub a person who got those priveleges (not saying you would either).

[FairDooz]

Okay I've watched it fully now. He isn't saying anything original and for some reason he views religion through rose-tinted glasses.

 

He is saying we should "learn from religion" but like yourself, he doesn't give an example of anything that religion can provide that doesn't already exist outside of it.

Are you just agreeing with his speech or have you thought about this yourself? If the latter, then the question still remains, just what exactly do you think religion can give us that we don't already have outside of it?

 

OK. Respect RB! (and no I don't talk like that face to face).

 

I think maybe you're coming at the video from a different angle to myself, in fact I'm sure you are. I need to watch it again myself in light of six45ive's comments, but here's what I took from it.

 

First of all I did not pick up on any implication that we can learn new facts from religion, or that we can pick up a superior morality. What I picked up (and again I will watch again to check) is that aetheists do not need to compromise their (non) beliefs. He begins early on by saying "of course there's no God ... " etc. We begin by recognising and getting over that difference.

 

If we have a vision of a better society where more people can come together with shared values regardless of their beliefs or non-belief, then why not learn from each other?

 

What is it that we can learn from the religious? Well, it's how they bind communities together. Weekly congregations, songs, festivals, holy days, public architecture, temples, art.

 

OK you say, the secular world has all of these things, but not with the specific purpose of supporting a value system.

 

In a nutshell that's what I think we can learn from religion - defining a clear value system, a moral code, a support network from birth to death and use every means possible (rather than just intellectual debate to establish a singular version of "truth") to bring people together as valued members of a community.

 

Does that make any more sense?

 

[now watching six45ive's video link ... 1h 20m! This had better be good six45ive - the sound quality's a bit iffy!]

[six45ive]

[now watching six45ive's video link ... 1h 20m! This had better be good six45ive - the sound quality's a bit iffy!]

 

There's a lot to take in but I would hope that if there's just one thing you get out of it then that's the idea that the process of deriving morals from the methods portrayed in the video are more grown up, better thought out, more democratic, community orientated, can change and adapt to new information and changing lifestyles and allow input from anybody who wishes to participate therefore resulting in a far superior moral code than the 'hand me down' pseudo morality from a 2000 year old set of desert scrolls.

 

PS. It's looking good for tomorrow night.