quisquose Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 PS. It's looking good for tomorrow night. Nice to know that you two are meeting up on Valentine's Day. It could be the start of something beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 OK. Respect RB! (and no I don't talk like that face to face). I think maybe you're coming at the video from a different angle to myself, in fact I'm sure you are. I need to watch it again myself in light of six45ive's comments, but here's what I took from it. First of all I did not pick up on any implication that we can learn new facts from religion, or that we can pick up a superior morality. I haven't mentioned anything like this What I picked up (and again I will watch again to check) is that aetheists do not need to compromise their (non) beliefs. He begins early on by saying "of course there's no God ... " etc. We begin by recognising and getting over that difference. This is what I'm talking about, he's assuming that atheists don't get on with theists. Atheists and theists have been getting along together for a long time just fine, it's not a new thing that he's proposing. If we have a vision of a better society where more people can come together with shared values regardless of their beliefs or non-belief, then why not learn from each other? Once again, learn WHAT exactly? What is it that we can learn from the religious? Well, it's how they bind communities together. Weekly congregations, songs, festivals, holy days, public architecture, temples, art. OK you say, the secular world has all of these things, but not with the specific purpose of supporting a value system. Now we're getting somewhere. I think you'll find that these things, when used by the Church, have the purpose of worshipping God almighty, not "supporting a value system". In what way do you think the Church uses these things to support a value system? In a nutshell that's what I think we can learn from religion - defining a clear value system, a moral code, a support network from birth to death and use every means possible (rather than just intellectual debate to establish a singular version of "truth") to bring people together as valued members of a community. Does that make any more sense? I can see where you're coming from about a support network (still not unique to religion though) but the "clear value system" and moral code? You'd be hard pressed to find a LESS clear example than the bible. Now, another question for you with regards to the teaching of values and morals, what are your thoughts on my example of the ten commandments? ADDED: earlier post: I don't think the 10 commandments are a very good moral guide at all. Take Moses for example, broke one of the ten commandments before the dust from the carvings had even settled, and with gusto! So, Moses comes down the mountain, carrying the tablets with the ten commandments on. One of these commandments is "Thou shalt not kill".... Bear in mind this is supposedly God's word, his rules laid down to mankind, delivered by Moses. As he returned to his people he found them worshipping the golden calf. What did he do? He killed them, about 3,000 men, women and children. He then told his men they had brought a blessing upon themselves by carrying out the murders. Nowhere does it say "Thou shalt not kill, unless it is for vengeful punishment" it says simply "Thou shalt NOT kill" Good moral checklist? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Nice to know that you two are meeting up on Valentine's Day. It could be the start of something beautiful. Missed that connection. You can always pop down and join us. I've never been a believer in 'two's company, three's a crowd'. More the merrier as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranna Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I know I've linked to this already in the [science VS Religion] thread (which I guess is running to a rather messy end - and yes I have been unintentionally partially responsible for that, sorry!) ... but it didn't attract much comment and I personally think it deserves some attention. Take a look - what do you think? Q. Is there any mileage in looking for the common ground in the evolving values of aetheists and the evolving values of non-fundamentalist religions, or is it the case that logic and reason will always be incompatible with faith? If you like, think of this as the Science AND Religion thread ... Whatever Aethism 2.0 is, I do sure hope it will sweep North Africa, the Middle East and Pakistan like a forest fire; that part of the world needs it like no other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hey, you're right! I've only gotten 20 odd minutes into the video and was about to post exactly (OK - ish) your comment above. I agree with the argument being made. The process of deriving morals/values in a secular system is more democratic. [but, not entirely is it? We don't vote for the laws which are based upon the values ... however, I'd still say that the process of arriving at values is a little more open and a little more flexible to change, which is a good thing] However, here's the thing that strikes me. Secular morals and religious morals are not a million miles apart (which can't be said about beliefs). Why get hung up on the process by which we reached the same destination? A quick analogy: One of the things that me and the other half have in common is a very similar taste in music. When we met 10 years ago, we were into Groove Armada, Faithless, and the Chemical Brothers. I listened to the them mostly through music video channels and she listened to Radio 1 and bought the CDs. It didn't really matter how we got there, we both liked the music. At the time she didn't even know anyone else who had even heard of Groove Armada let alone liked them. (Incidentally she saw the video for Superstylin for the first time just the other night - ***resists temptation to post link*** you won't like them, they belong to us) Anyway, the point is that there's not a lot to be gained from us arguing about the route by which we arrived at the same point. capiche? (not sure I should use that - does it have disrespectful overtones?) So ... well ... I think you can join up the dots with where I'm coming from. Speaking of the OH, she's back from a long day (shift worker) so gotta go down and say hello. Hope you're still up for our date - I see folks are getting jealous already ... but just in case people get the wrong idea, yes quisqose it's an open invite to meet up ... put out a while back, and no i didn't make the connection either - OH on nights tomorrow, doing Valentine's at the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six45ive Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hey, you're right! I've only gotten 20 odd minutes into the video and was about to post exactly (OK - ish) your comment above. I agree with the argument being made. The process of deriving morals/values in a secular system is more democratic. [but, not entirely is it? We don't vote for the laws which are based upon the values ... however, I'd still say that the process of arriving at values is a little more open and a little more flexible to change, which is a good thing] However, here's the thing that strikes me. Secular morals and religious morals are not a million miles apart (which can't be said about beliefs). Why get hung up on the process by which we reached the same destination? A quick analogy: One of the things that me and the other half have in common is a very similar taste in music. When we met 10 years ago, we were into Groove Armada, Faithless, and the Chemical Brothers. I listened to the them mostly through music video channels and she listened to Radio 1 and bought the CDs. It didn't really matter how we got there, we both liked the music. At the time she didn't even know anyone else who had even heard of Groove Armada let alone liked them. (Incidentally she saw the video for Superstylin for the first time just the other night - ***resists temptation to post link*** you won't like them, they belong to us) Anyway, the point is that there's not a lot to be gained from us arguing about the route by which we arrived at the same point. capiche? (not sure I should use that - does it have disrespectful overtones?) So ... well ... I think you can join up the dots with where I'm coming from. Speaking of the OH, she's back from a long day (shift worker) so gotta go down and say hello. Hope you're still up for our date - I see folks are getting jealous already ... but just in case people get the wrong idea, yes quisqose it's an open invite to meet up ... put out a while back, and no i didn't make the connection either - OH on nights tomorrow, doing Valentine's at the weekend. Looking forward to carrying the conversation on tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairDooz Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Great discussion six45ive - loads of areas for agreement but no shifting of any lines in the sand! I'll consider de Botton's proposal dead and buried for SFers, but thanks for all contributions to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Great discussion six45ive - loads of areas for agreement but no shifting of any lines in the sand! I'll consider de Botton's proposal dead and buried for SFers, but thanks for all contributions to the discussion. ....or you could give your opinion of my posting about the ten commandments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwhine Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I can't say that I've experienced anyone trying to impose their religious beliefs on me ... although I'm not saying it doesn't happen. >Cough< Bishops in the House of Lords? >cough< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwhine Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 What can I learn from religion? Let me see... Homophobia - check. Misogyny - check. Intolerance - check. Hypocrisy - check. Hmmm. Sorry, but I think I'll pass. Thanks anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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