Will Labour ever get back in power?

[retep]

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj69/howard.htm

 

Conclusion

 

In the present decade movements continue to arise to confront the absurdities emanating from the unregulated sprawl of city growth, with all its damaging consequences. Campaigns against motorway extensions, road tolls, noise and environmental pollution join up with New Age travellers, squatters and ravers to demand some rational improvement in social living. If all these movements fail to link up into a generalised struggle against those who exclusively exercise economic power, then their failures will far outweigh their successes. In practice and in theory, the new left in Sheffield, at best, created castles in the air; at worst, they accelerated defeat for its workers who continue to suffer the consequences. But the restructuring of capitalist production in Sheffield still leaves the road clear to major social change through class struggle, organised through the continual confrontations workers in cities have with the owners of property, state or private.

[Jim Graham]

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj69/howard.htm

 

Conclusion

 

In the present decade movements continue to arise to confront the absurdities emanating from the unregulated sprawl of city growth, with all its damaging consequences. Campaigns against motorway extensions, road tolls, noise and environmental pollution join up with New Age travellers, squatters and ravers to demand some rational improvement in social living. If all these movements fail to link up into a generalised struggle against those who exclusively exercise economic power, then their failures will far outweigh their successes. In practice and in theory, the new left in Sheffield, at best, created castles in the air; at worst, they accelerated defeat for its workers who continue to suffer the consequences. But the restructuring of capitalist production in Sheffield still leaves the road clear to major social change through class struggle, organised through the continual confrontations workers in cities have with the owners of property, state or private.

 

 

You talk about the present decade and then churn out recycled rhetoric from the 1840s. The problem with Socialism is that it's time has come and long gone but it's supporters can't accept it. The lot of the working man has improved immeasurably in the last 50 years without Socialism but the economic cost has been ruinous to our economy.

 

As you rightly say Socialism accelerated defeat for the working man through economic disaster as we have now but nobody here will accept they lost. The idea of Capitalist production went out with manufacturing industry. I'd like to see the workers seize the means of a service economy. Part of the problem is that they think they can. And the idea of class struggle is utterly ludicrous when education is the main determinate of economic success.

 

It's no wonder this city struggles to make a mark in the 21st century when so much of it's ideas and aspirations are more relevant to the 19th century. Socialists have been in charge of this city since Adam was a lad. If there is any barrier to social change it's the left wing loons that are stopping it. There are powerful vested interests keeping this city in poverty and ignorance. The idea that it has anything to do with class, capitalism or the failure of single issue pressure groups is absurd. There is no new left in Sheffield. They are all old left.

[Jim Graham]

That’s not fair on Mr Cameron he could always sneak in again with slippery nick in his back pocket.

 

 

Well there's no danger of Millibrain and his spendaholic sidekicks getting in.

[Norseman]

It's the hard of thinking like you that keep Labour in power. You have the intellect of a football supporter. Facts are meaningless to you aren't they? So here's a few more for you to ignore:

 

The Conservatives rescued the country in 1979 after years of Socialist lunacy left the country broke and in debt. Labour had devalued the pound and gone cap in hand for a bailout from the IMF. Basic rate tax was 33%.

 

When Labour took over in 1997 the country owed nothing. After 13 years of Labour we owed £600,000,000,000.

 

Sheffield City Council has debts of £2.1bn racked up by years of Labour mismanagement and the city is still an economic basket case.

 

The real loons are the ones who think Labour are the solution to any problem. Being Conservative may not be cool but it shows a degree of common sense and intelligence. Of course those are qualities despised by Socialists because anybody with brains isn't going to support Labour.

 

The people who despise the Tories are those who expect something for nothing.

 

I know Labour can spend spend spend however I didn't know after just 13 years in power they had accummulated that much debt wow. Does this include the 5.5 billion pension pot or is this in addition?

 

Every labour government since WW2 has left power with the country in severe debt only for the tories to come along and balance the books. It was Thatcher who balanced the books on the massive national debt that we owed the USA following WW2, Labour didn't contribute a penny to the debt.

 

Maybe stauch Labour supporters would be happy to pay 33% of their hard earned wages in tax again or doesn't this matter?

 

And we can't forget the looney Labour Karl Marx bandstand on the Moor can we... you know the one that was never actually used and cost £120,000 to build, thank you Clive Betts !!

 

I don't like Politicians however I despise anyone who can blatently deny the obvious and also cripple our country with un-necessary and unthoughtful debts whilst giving themselves massive pay rises. In fact Maggie T was the only PM to actually cut wages during her period in charge.

[TheGuy]

I'd lock all the Tory MP's in a cell, stop all food going in, no water or healthcare, no heating, just plates of POUND NOTES.

 

Pound notes??! were'nt they replaced with coins in 1983?

[Grandad.Malky]

Well there's no danger of Millibrain and his spendaholic sidekicks getting in.

 

Is pulling billions of pounds out of thin air “spending” …………. Hold on let me think about that one.

[Tradescanthia]

You talk about the present decade and then churn out recycled rhetoric from the 1840s. The problem with Socialism is that it's time has come and long gone but it's supporters can't accept it. The lot of the working man has improved immeasurably in the last 50 years without Socialism but the economic cost has been ruinous to our economy.

 

As you rightly say Socialism accelerated defeat for the working man through economic disaster as we have now but nobody here will accept they lost. The idea of Capitalist production went out with manufacturing industry. I'd like to see the workers seize the means of a service economy. Part of the problem is that they think they can. And the idea of class struggle is utterly ludicrous when education is the main determinate of economic success.

 

It's no wonder this city struggles to make a mark in the 21st century when so much of it's ideas and aspirations are more relevant to the 19th century. Socialists have been in charge of this city since Adam was a lad. If there is any barrier to social change it's the left wing loons that are stopping it. There are powerful vested interests keeping this city in poverty and ignorance. The idea that it has anything to do with class, capitalism or the failure of single issue pressure groups is absurd. There is no new left in Sheffield. They are all old left.

 

I dont agree with many of your political views but you do make some sense in this post. BUT, ordinary working people being treat like crap and almost enslaved [a Tory dream] is not the way to go. Capitalism today is based on greed, not business sense so naturally the left act accordingly. Education IS the only way forward but I dont think many of us will be around long enough to see it.

[Jim Graham]

I dont agree with many of your political views but you do make some sense in this post. BUT, ordinary working people being treat like crap and almost enslaved [a Tory dream] is not the way to go. Capitalism today is based on greed, not business sense so naturally the left act accordingly. Education IS the only way forward but I dont think many of us will be around long enough to see it.

 

 

The idea that a Conservative government can treat the people like slaves is absurd lefty rhetoric. If they did they wouldn't get re-elected. Thatcher got elected three times so she must have been doing something right. She upset the lefties by taking away their right to get something for nothing and they can't forgive her for that. The rest of the country agreed with her.

 

Socialism cannot create wealth. It can only spend it. That's why Labour governments always end up bankrupting the country. The only way forward is Capitalism because that creates wealth BUT it needs to be very carefully and skillfully regulated. The problem is the regulators are politicians and what do they know about anything? They are talentless idiots. At least the Tories have some economic sense, unlike Labour's spendaholics.

 

I am not the right wing nutter everyone thinks I am. All politics is relative and in Sheffield if you aren't a card carrying memder of the Socialist Shirkers you get branded a Tory. I supported Labour until 1979. Never again.

[Tradescanthia]

The idea that a Conservative government can treat the people like slaves is absurd lefty rhetoric. If they did they wouldn't get re-elected. Thatcher got elected three times so she must have been doing something right. She upset the lefties by taking away their right to get something for nothing and they can't forgive her for that. The rest of the country agreed with her.

 

Socialism cannot create wealth. It can only spend it. That's why Labour governments always end up bankrupting the country. The only way forward is Capitalism because that creates wealth BUT it needs to be very carefully and skillfully regulated. The problem is the regulators are politicians and what do they know about anything? They are talentless idiots. At least the Tories have some economic sense, unlike Labour's spendaholics.

 

I am not the right wing nutter everyone thinks I am. All politics is relative and in Sheffield if you aren't a card carrying memder of the Socialist Shirkers you get branded a Tory. I supported Labour until 1979. Never again.

 

Thatcher took away jobs, she actually stated we didn't need manufacturing and service industrys were the way forward - along with banking etc. She had a personal hatred of South Yorkshire 'cos that awfull Mr Scargill lives there so her and her cohorts laid waste to it. i reckon old red Ken Livingston is right when he said last week that Mrs T was clinically insane.

Trouble with the Torys economic sense is that its the poor people who have to bear the brunt of any austerity cuts. Tax rates could be raised a little for the better off, they can afford it. Maybe then VAT could be cut a little to stimulate High St spending.

We are conditioned in the UK to accept leadership [bull****] from our betters, bit of forelock tugging, bowing and scraping and to ignore the fact that people like Cameron, Clegg and Osborne are shafting us. The old saying "We get the government we deserve" is true.

[Conrod]

Hard of thinking eh ?? Only time will tell. How many Tory MP's do we have in Sheffield ??? Is all Sheffield wrong but you are right ?? How many seats do the Tory's have in Scotland ?? Zilch !!! . . . .

We don't have Conservative seats in Sheffield because Sheffield is a city with a disproportionately high number of people from low socio-economic groups / in social housing / on benefits / of poor education standard etc.

 

Look across the country, and you will see that the majority of England is very Conservative. That's because outside of places like South Yorkshire and the North East, politics hasn't been turned into a class divide driven by the bitter politics of envy that you have written all over this thread.

 

On a national basis, yes, the left-voting people of Sheffield are very wrong.