L00b Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 no, I'm pretty sure no animal can recognise itself in a mirror, and this is the benchmark for being self aware.The issue (at least for me) is how do you tell whether your dog recognises itself or not? Some dogs don't seem to 'get' mirrors at all, others exhibit 'a reaction' to the stimulus...but what is 'recognition'? Our dog reacts to a mirror image (so understands that 'there is something to look at'), but differently depending on whether: * it's just him (notice taken, but mild indifference - is that lack of self-awareness, or just no interest in its reflection?), or * one of us reflected as well (passing by behind, whereby he turns around...so seemingly understands that it's reflective/we're not 'in' or 'beyond' the mirror), or -God forbid- * a bird or the neighbour's cat in the garden reflected as well (whereby he turns around and runs off barking at the window with crazed bloodlust ) Similar-ish with TV, btw - which is odd, since that is not reflective (he'll bark at the TV e.g. showing a cat, but not at the mirror reflecting the neighbour's cat ) Also, there's possibly a bit of confusion in the thread: do we equate 'smarts' with 'self-awareness' at all, or not? The problem-solving skills of my dog never cease to amaze me (he'll "use" our 7 year old to open him doors, that we won't otherwise open to him...little b#### ). But I'm not quite sure that qualifies it as self-aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What academics cling to the notion that humans aren't an animal? That's a huge generalisation to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue (at least for me) is how do you tell whether your dog recognises itself or not? Some dogs don't seem to 'get' mirrors at all, others exhibit 'a reaction' to the stimulus...but what is 'recognition'? Our dog reacts to a mirror image (so understands that 'there is something to look at'), but differently depending on whether: * it's just him (notice taken, but mild indifference - is that lack of self-awareness, or just no interest in its reflection?), or * one of us reflected as well (passing by behind, whereby he turns around...so seemingly understands that it's reflective/we're not 'in' or 'beyond' the mirror), or -God forbid- * a bird or the neighbour's cat in the garden reflected as well (whereby he turns around and runs off barking at the window with crazed bloodlust ) Similar-ish with TV, btw - which is odd, since that is not reflective (he'll bark at the TV e.g. showing a cat, but not at the mirror reflecting the neighbour's cat ) Also, there's possibly a bit of confusion in the thread: do we equate 'smarts' with 'self-awareness' at all, or not? The problem-solving skills of my dog never cease to amaze me (he'll "use" our 7 year old to open him doors, that we won't otherwise open to him...little b#### ). But I'm not quite sure that qualifies it as self-aware. I've seen a dog walk over to the TV and have a look behind it to see where something that just walked off the edge of the screen has gone. They quite quickly learn that it's not gone anywhere, and so they don't bother after that. Self awareness is a pretty arbitrary thing to base a distinction between humans and other animals on anyway, firstly it's very difficult to explain or articulate and secondly (more importantly) it's even more difficult to determine if an animal is self aware or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What academics cling to the notion that humans aren't an animal? That's a huge generalisation to make! Sorry I was rushing, I meant to say that humans are 'higher', in relation to being 'better' than other animals according to academics, not that humans aren't animals, I will go and correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue (at least for me) is how do you tell whether your dog recognises itself or not? Some dogs don't seem to 'get' mirrors at all, others exhibit 'a reaction' to the stimulus...but what is 'recognition'? Our dog reacts to a mirror image (so understands that 'there is something to look at'), but differently depending on whether: * it's just him (notice taken, but mild indifference - is that lack of self-awareness, or just no interest in its reflection?), or * one of us reflected as well (passing by behind, whereby he turns around...so seemingly understands that it's reflective/we're not 'in' or 'beyond' the mirror), or -God forbid- * a bird or the neighbour's cat in the garden reflected as well (whereby he turns around and runs off barking at the window with crazed bloodlust ) Similar-ish with TV, btw - which is odd, since that is not reflective (he'll bark at the TV e.g. showing a cat, but not at the mirror reflecting the neighbour's cat ) Also, there's possibly a bit of confusion in the thread: do we equate 'smarts' with 'self-awareness' at all, or not? The problem-solving skills of my dog never cease to amaze me (he'll "use" our 7 year old to open him doors, that we won't otherwise open to him...little b#### ). But I'm not quite sure that qualifies it as self-aware. I'll expand on my earlier post a little... Yes, my dog certainly recognises himself in the mirror. If he thought it was another dog he would go beserk. My dog will not tolerate other dogs on or in our property one bit, not in the slightest. He is fine with dogs off-property, but if there was a dog in our house he would and does go absolutely ape-s**t. The first time we showed him a mirror (full-length) he jumped out of his skin and barked, then stopped. He pawed at it a little and seemed amused. Within seconds he had accepted it and has never been bothered by it since. We have tried to get him to accept a relative's dog being brought into the house since but he will not under any circumstances have any of it, EVEN though they get on fine together when out for walks. This to me is pretty strong evidence that he knows the reflection is his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 no, I'm pretty sure no animal can recognise itself in a mirror, and this is the benchmark for being self aware. ...and WHAT makes you so sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barleycorn Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'll expand on my earlier post a little... My dog will not tolerate other dogs on or in our property one bit, not in the slightest. He is fine with dogs off-property, but if there was a dog in our house he would and does go absolutely ape-s**t. The first time we showed him a mirror (full-length) he jumped out of his skin and barked, then stopped. He pawed at it a little and seemed amused. Within seconds he had accepted it and has never been bothered by it since. We have tried to get him to accept a relative's dog being brought into the house since but he will not under any circumstances have any of it, EVEN though they get on fine together when out for walks. This to me is pretty strong evidence that he knows the reflection is his own. Either that or because his reflection has no scent he knows it is not a real dog. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue (at least for me) is how do you tell whether your dog recognises itself or not? Some dogs don't seem to 'get' mirrors at all, others exhibit 'a reaction' to the stimulus...but what is 'recognition'? Our dog reacts to a mirror image (so understands that 'there is something to look at'), but differently depending on whether: * it's just him (notice taken, but mild indifference - is that lack of self-awareness, or just no interest in its reflection?), or * one of us reflected as well (passing by behind, whereby he turns around...so seemingly understands that it's reflective/we're not 'in' or 'beyond' the mirror), or -God forbid- * a bird or the neighbour's cat in the garden reflected as well (whereby he turns around and runs off barking at the window with crazed bloodlust ) Similar-ish with TV, btw - which is odd, since that is not reflective (he'll bark at the TV e.g. showing a cat, but not at the mirror reflecting the neighbour's cat ) Also, there's possibly a bit of confusion in the thread: do we equate 'smarts' with 'self-awareness' at all, or not? The problem-solving skills of my dog never cease to amaze me (he'll "use" our 7 year old to open him doors, that we won't otherwise open to him...little b#### ). But I'm not quite sure that qualifies it as self-aware. Thats the same as humans, if you found an adult human that didn't know what a mirror was there would be similar reactions I am sure! Ps my dads dog goes for the famous grouse, runs at the telly and digs the screen where the bird is:hihi: If its a dog on they go and stare at it but don't dig-who knows what they are thinking. Probably along the lines of robin hood looking through the telescope in prince of thieves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I recall a gorilla that was kept in captivity (I know not where or why, or whether its captivity was justified) and had a room of its own with bits of furniture, such as a wardrobe and a filing cabinet. There was also a small model of the gorilla's room, and the people working with it would place a tiny model banana into some position on this model, and show it to the gorilla. The gorilla would immediately go off into its room and look in exactly that place for a banana - which it would find and eat, because the whole point of the exercise was to see if a gorilla could understand that it was looking at a model of its own surroundings. That suggests to me that the gorilla was self-aware. I don't know what conclusions the people working with it came to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 This to me is pretty strong evidence that he knows the reflection is his own.Your dog's behaviour in front of a mirror sounds pretty similar to mine, but I'd say that's circumstancial (equivocal) evidence at best, not 'pretty strong'. You can interpret his reaction (same as I do about mine), but you do not know what he actually knows (..if dogs can 'know' anything, in the sense of the thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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