HeadingNorth Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Your dog's behaviour in front of a mirror sounds pretty similar to mine, but I'd say that's circumstancial (equivocal) evidence at best, not 'pretty strong'. You can interpret his reaction, but you do not know what he actually knows (..if dogs can 'know' anything, in the sense of the thread). I think the test for self-awareness is parallel to the Turing test for intelligence; if a creature which definitely is self-aware would behave in a certain way, and your dog behaves in the same way, you have to conclude that it's self-aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thats the same as humans, if you found an adult human that didn't know what a mirror was there would be similar reactions I am sure! Initially, yes - of course. But humans use mirrors (on a repeated basis, hence why humans have them in dwellings) for grooming/vanity. So, even if the dog 'gets' what a mirror is (in functional terms, what it does), what would a dog use a mirror for? I have yet to hear about a vain dog, or one that needs a mirror to lick his bits There is no stimulus/goal that I can think of, for a dog to want to look into a mirror... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Initially, yes - of course. But humans use mirrors (on a repeated basis, hence why humans have them in dwellings) for grooming/vanity. So, even if the dog 'gets' what a mirror is (in functional terms, what it does), what would a dog use a mirror for? I have yet to hear about a vain dog, or one that needs a mirror to lick his bits There is no stimulus/goal that I can think of, for a dog to want to look into a mirror... They can learn that it shows them what's going on behind them, of course; but that's not remotely helpful to the argument about self-awareness. I can't imagine any reason why a dog would think it was useful to be able to look at itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't get any of it, they know they exist as well as we do. Its just some BS philosophical term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 They can learn that it shows them what's going on behind them, of course; but that's not remotely helpful to the argument about self-awareness. I can't imagine any reason why a dog would think it was useful to be able to look at itself.My point exactly I'll let mine finish and email my tax returns, and get back to you in a mo' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Either that or because his reflection has no scent he knows it is not a real dog. jb Interesting, maybe another dog's toy rubbed on the mirror would make him react differently? I doubt it though... The other thing that happened when we first introduced him to the mirror (after he'd gotten over his own reflection) was that he saw me in the mirror also and at first pawed for me when my reflection beckoned to him, then he looked round at the real me. After a little thought on his part he seemed to accept it wasn't another me and stopped reacting to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Your dog's behaviour in front of a mirror sounds pretty similar to mine, but I'd say that's circumstancial (equivocal) evidence at best, not 'pretty strong'. You can interpret his reaction (same as I do about mine), but you do not know what he actually knows (..if dogs can 'know' anything, in the sense of the thread). But his reaction is the same, no matter how many times you repeat the test, with the variables included from your own post earlier, you get the same results. That is strong evidence to me. You said that YOUR dog reacts DIFFERENTLY depending on the circumstances, that is more like circumstantial evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Initially, yes - of course. But humans use mirrors (on a repeated basis, hence why humans have them in dwellings) for grooming/vanity. So, even if the dog 'gets' what a mirror is (in functional terms, what it does), what would a dog use a mirror for? I have yet to hear about a vain dog, or one that needs a mirror to lick his bits There is no stimulus/goal that I can think of, for a dog to want to look into a mirror... This is actually a good point, a dog licks his "bits", so he knows he has a body, so logic would dictate that he knows he exists. He also knows that the bottom half of his body looks like the bottom half of a dog's body. He also knows that he smells like a dog. This means there's a good chance he's aware that he's a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Animals dream, I'm not sure about you but I've never had a dream where I wasn't aware that 'I' was in it, even if I was someone else. How can something dream without an awsreness of self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingNorth Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Animals dream That can't be proven either; only inferred because they behave while sleeping in the same that way do while we're in REM sleep and having dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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