PaliRichard Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 That can't be proven either; only inferred because they behave while sleeping in the same that way do while we're in REM sleep and having dreams. They go into REM sleep, they have been shown to exhibit more active brain patterns, it hasn't been 'proven' in the same manner that I can't prove my wife is dreaming because I don't experience it, but in these cases the inference is enough to make an educated hypothosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 That can't be proven either; only inferred because they behave while sleeping in the same that way do while we're in REM sleep and having dreams. My dog growls, woofs, whimpers, wags his tail and runs (well, goes through the motions laying on his side) while he is asleep. This display of emotions and actions from him while he sleeps is enough evidence for ME to conclude that he dreams. What would you make of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curriechick Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I wrote a post earlier relating to a tv programme last week. During that programme they put a full length mirror in the path of an elephant and the elephant didn't know what to make of it for a couple of minutes then by making movements with her foot and her trunk she worked out that it was her reflection. From that she even started to preen herself, checking out the underside of her trunk and a mark on on of her tusks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 That can't be proven either; only inferred because they behave while sleeping in the same that way do while we're in REM sleep and having dreams. I'm sure it could easily be proven with a brain scan, but given the pretty clear evidence and given that our brain structures aren't that different (amongst mammals), why would you think that they didn't dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't get any of it, they know they exist as well as we do. Its just some BS philosophical term. I don't think it is. There must be a level of complexity of thought where you use the model of things in your head to model your own behavior. That's self awareness, the understanding that you are separate from everything else. Children don't gain that understanding until sometime around the age of 2 or 3, worms never gain it, they are too simple neurologically to have a model of anything, they're more like a complicated electrical circuit with a set of responses to environmental stimulus, none of which require the neurologically expensive hardware to model other worms behavior and to then extend that modelling to themselves). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 worms never gain it, they are too simple neurologically to have a model of anything, they're more like a complicated electrical circuit with a set of responses to environmental stimulus, none of which require the neurologically expensive hardware to model other worms behavior and to then extend that modelling to themselves).That's probably the acid test at its simplest: is an animal's behaviour solely dictated by base stimulus (fight/flight, eat, procreate) or demonstrably more complex? Arguably, the more complex, the higher level of self-awareness/cognitive capacity. There is also the 'learned vs taught' aspect/angle to consider. Re. my earlier post about our dog "using" our 7 year old to popen him doors - that was not dictated by 'base' stimulus at all. The dog just wanted to come in & let me know that it was time for morning walkies! So that, to me, demonstrates that the dog perceives all of us as distinct entities, each with its functional attributes, each to be approached/called upon depending on the 'day model' (me > walkies, Mrs > food, little one > trouble). The fact that he pined at the door for a good 20 mins, then 'went away' downstairs for 5 mins, only to come straight back up with our 7 year old who opened the door to him...pretty complex if you ask me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't think it is. There must be a level of complexity of thought where you use the model of things in your head to model your own behavior. That's self awareness, the understanding that you are separate from everything else. Children don't gain that understanding until sometime around the age of 2 or 3, worms never gain it, they are too simple neurologically to have a model of anything, they're more like a complicated electrical circuit with a set of responses to environmental stimulus, none of which require the neurologically expensive hardware to model other worms behavior and to then extend that modelling to themselves). What I meant by BS philosophical term was more that at the end of the day, they know they exist, they feel pain and they have emotions so does it matter whether they have self awareness which is some complicated difficult to define term for something we don't seem to understand, let alone be able to design a test for? Particularly if we accept that there will be no yes or no answer as theres no black and white its more greys!-unless we go from a rock to a human! ...although can we prove that rocks have no emotions? Maybe they just feel on a different level:huh: I always wonder that about when we are looking for alien life on other planets-how do we know how to define alien life:? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Headingnorth, is it your opinion/belief that animals aren't self-aware or are you just providing the counter for the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 What I meant by BS philosophical term was more that at the end of the day, they know they exist, they feel pain and they have emotions so does it matter whether they have self awareness which is some complicated difficult to define term for something we don't seem to understand, let alone be able to design a test for? Particularly if we accept that there will be no yes or no answer as theres no black and white its more greys!-unless we go from a rock to a human! ...although can we prove that rocks have no emotions? Maybe they just feel on a different level:huh: I always wonder that about when we are looking for alien life on other planets-how do we know how to define alien life:? life is quite well defined, self awareness, intelligence, emotion those are much more wooly terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 life is quite well defined, self awareness, intelligence, emotion those are much more wooly terms. But alien life might be completely different, there may be rocks in other worlds that communicate via telepathy-how would we know? They could be so advanced that we can't tell they are even there:o only vaguely connected to the op but look: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/17022725 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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