Phanerothyme Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 First there is a mountain, then there this no mountain, and then there is ... For me, it's Happiness Runs that really speaks most loudly to me. I do have you to thank for it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldo Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 He's quite prominent apparently in the TM movement, esp. up in Scotland I think. There is an ocean, of vast proportion, and she flows, within her self... To apprecieate, we deactivate; he knows, who goes, within him self... EDIT: Continuing to spam the thread with Donovan... (not to much about transedentalism, but way to go Lulu!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 To my mind, the pure awareness of the moment, and tuning out the anticipatory and reflective thought as you describe (and Pali alludes to) is a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there. Plus, there's further to go on the awareness spectrum. That's the beach where you wash up at first, there's spectacular inhabited geography inland. I don't think 'interesting' is relevant, It's not an interesting place but it doesn't need to be. I'm not sure dutch and I are talking about the same experience, his seems to me more in line with the quote from the power of now that Pattricia gave, I have never experienced that and am not sure it is possible to experience it (I'll go into more detail when I have a laptop at hand, I'm in the telephone at the minute), it certainly sounds interesting and I'd like to hear more details, but from the brief descriptions I've heard so far it sounds to be a little like that which the Buddha warned his followers against, not a state of concentration but one of intoxication and thus counter productive to the Buddhist goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 First there is a mountain, then there this no mountain, and then there is ... Directly ripped off from Zen Buddhism, here's a challenge for you all, 10 points to anyone who can give me a reasonable description of what that quote actually means in Buddhism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Directly ripped off from Zen Buddhism, here's a challenge for you all, 10 points to anyone who can give me a reasonable description of what that quote actually means in Buddhism. I like the song. It's a song. I'm sure Donovan is well used to the accusation that he "ripped off " Buddhism™ (© The Buddha 500-2012) All Rites Reserved. I don't think 'interesting' is relevant, It's not an interesting place but it doesn't need to be. That is the word I used though, the word in the post you replied directly to. Harmony is the epitome of undifferentiated dullness, all interest stems from conflict. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'm not sure dutch and I are talking about the same experience, his seems to me more in line with the quote from the power of now that Pattricia gave, I have never experienced that and am not sure it is possible to experience it (I'll go into more detail when I have a laptop at hand, I'm in the telephone at the minute), it certainly sounds interesting and I'd like to hear more details, but from the brief descriptions I've heard so far it sounds to be a little like that which the Buddha warned his followers against, not a state of concentration but one of intoxication and thus counter productive to the Buddhist goal. OK, back with an actual keyboard. Many of the posts that have been talking of meditation (or more importantly the experience of meditation) have touched upon the idea that we somehow have an 'off' button. If this is akin to the Hindu Yogic meditation I am more familiar with (than the authors suggested in this post) it means the 'you' is switched off and what is left is merely the experience. What I don't understand is if the 'you' is switched off, who is doing the experiencing? In Buddhism there is the experience without the experiencer, but that is not because the experiencer is switched 'off', but because there is no clinging to the identity of the experiencer, and that is the best you're going to get as an explanation on that point, as to understand it fully you need to, erm, experience it (I will try and phrase it differently if promted, but the technicalities will be the same). I read an intersting book called The Feeling of What Happens by, if memory serves correctly, Antonio DeMasio. It wasn't in any way a spiritual book, he is one of the worlds leading experts in the brain and emotion, and it was purely from a scientific standpoint. In it he describes case studies of people with brain damage who when in an 'unconcious' state still function like everyday people, but with no memory of what, or any reason behind what they did. This seems more akin to the meditation that dutch and others are talking about than to Buddhist meditation, a completely 'non self' acting in the world. In Buddhism such states would be enough of an excuse to be 'innocent' in a case of misconduct, as there is no concious action at work (for example if someone is delirious with fever), or, if there was a general 'feeling' of bliss with no experiencer at all it would probably be frowned upon as attachment to a mental state, which is a hinderance to the path (to put a zen phrase on it you would be attched to the finger rather than the moon). So I am exceptionally interested in this 'off' mechanism, I have been meditating for over ten years and have never felt switched 'off' (unless I have become too comfortable and fallen asleep ) I am not want to describe my own meditative experiences, other than to say that this seems a very alien concept to me, and further exploration would be most welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I like the song. It's a song. I'm sure Donovan is well used to the accusation that he "ripped off " Buddhism™ (© The Buddha 500-2012) All Rites Reserved.[/Quote] I'm sure you know what I mean, and btw, it is a very fine song indeed. That is the word I used though, the word in the post you replied directly to. Yes but it's not really relevant as a word to describe meditative experience, the experience is beyond the concept of 'interesting'. In a very black and white way it could be said that it is exceptionally interesting because it open up a whole new sphere of ourselves that we are otherwise unaware of. The problem with using such a word is that it is not an interesting experience as such, because the intellectual side of ourselves that would find it interesting is too busy feelingthe bliss rather than analyzing it. I'm not sure I can put it any better than that, maybe another poster could explain it better than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattricia Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 This is the difference between mindful meditation techniques and other techniques. Mindfulness doesn't 'free' you of your mind, it makes you absolutely and totally aware of it, and its nature. I have never tried being free of my mind, I'm not sure its possible? It certainly has no resemblence to any Buddhist meditation, although it does sound similar to some Hindu ideas. I would like to meet someone who has this ability to talk to, it would be really intetesting, I might even go out and buy the power of now myself to have a look at, thanks Pattricia. It makes for interesting reading. For instance the author says : "You also realize that all the things that truly matter ........love, beauty,creativity,joy, inner peace... arise from beyond the mind. You begin to awaken." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattricia Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 People may think why I , of all people am interested in meditation. The reason is, I have read every article on meditation and everyone, even the medical profession are in favour of it. Thats good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Snap!! In my miss-spent younger days, did various drugs to death; which I had several terrifying experiences with. After, that, I did Chinese Taoist health arts for many years (Tai Chi, Kung Fu, and a whole spectrum of other things, all with the emphasis on health and well-being). I can say, absolutely, for me, the best high in the world, is a natural one. By being healthy, in body, mind, spirit, emotions, your whole being feeling well and happy, and swimming with Chi. To my mind, nothing beats that, there's no down side, it costs very little, other than the dedication and years of hard work you put in to training. If you're into Donovan (hippy folk music), he does a good version of Riki-Tiki-Tavi, you should check out. Natual high is the best high in the world... Am sure some here won't agree, but that's cool, and we're all good friends I hope. Were your bad experiences the reason you stopped doing drugs? I never had any bad experiences, I just drifted away from it as my interests changed, to be fair my above post makes it sound like there were solid lines of change, there were not, the music/martial arts/Buddhism overlapped somewhat, but I never had a feeling I had to 'change my life', it was a natural process, or at least seems to have been in hindsight. One thing you said really caught my eye, that of 'it costs very little, other than the dedication and years of hard work you put in to training'. The cost aspect is very interesting to me, especially when you look at it from a religious perspective. People often say 'religion controls people with its rules'. I can say definitively that as time went on, and as I took on board more 'rules' from Buddhism, my freedom increased to the point where I now feel totally free, yet I observe more rules than ever. When I was young I was a rebel, I stuck two fingures up at the world and thought no one could control me, but looking back I was more caged then than I have ever been observing religious practice. As I went through the physical training I conceived for myself I began to realise that there was great rewards to have from what in everyday life would be considered a 'sacrifice'. I never consider the time I spent missing out on what my peers were doing a 'sacrifice' or lost time. In fact when I look back now and look at those friends who are still doing what I was doing as a teenager they seem alien to me in a way. I am physically, and definately mentally, much much stronger than almost everyone else my age (I have one friend who is a Muslim, who had a similar journey to me but his wasn't quite so smooth) and I don't consider I have sacrificed anything to get here, all I have done is gained, and the more concentration opens my eyes to see 'beyond the veil' the happier I become. Yours sounds like a very similar 'journey', and I am glad to hear there are more of us out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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