Jim Graham Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 oh really? What do you think made the British Empire great? It wasn't gold, tin, copper and diamonds mined in Orgreave. If you dont believe youve been the beneficiary of that you cant live in the uk. Don't waste your time. Whatever planet he's on has no intelligent lifeforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Speaking of Detroit, I urge you to google "ruins of Detroit" it's a photo exhibition detailing some remarkable buildings left to rot. Back on topic, I'm amazed tesco needed to get foreigners in. My two main choices of supermarket have had the same faces for years, some promoted some not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 ... What puzzles me is that there seems to be a bit of a myth that the British won't work. There may be some but the vast majority do. We don't get to see the feckless in places like Poland, because they don't come here to work, because they are, well, feckless. You've hit the nail on the head there, Jack. Those who migrate (be it into or out of a country) tend to be better motivated than (some of) those who stay behind. Even those (and there probably are some) who go to a place for the benefits are more highly motivated than those who can't be bothered. If overseas workers were better we British would be traveling to their country to work, because their country would be a hive of success with plenty of opportunities. They're not, they're usually very poor 3rd world countries. If they're all so hard working, why is this? That question isn't quite as straightforward as it looks. In many cases the countries are not poor 3rd world nations, but post-(failed)socialist nations in which the economy moved from being 'state controlled socialist' to 'free market capitalist' without making adequate allowance for the fact that the 'new' nation would still need public employees and that highly-qualified and highly-skilled employees who were not themselves entrepreneurs should benefit from the emerging economy. About 5 years ago I met a Polish engineer (Masters' degree, 15 years experience, well-respected in his field) who earned £500 a month. He told me he was thinking of emigrating. - Permanently. If he did so and if he got a job as an engineer, then some company would've got a highly-qualified, highly-skilled well-respected (in his field) employee. If he had gone to the UK and set up as a window cleaner he would probably have made more than £500 a month. Britain is a world leader in industry, the arts, technology and science. We are also one of the richest countries in the world. None of that is achieved by being a bunch of lay abouts... Exactly. If you were a potential investor in the UK and you based your investment decision on the crap you read on this forum, you'd probably run a mile! 'Maggie destroyed our industry' 'Maggie took away all our jobs'. Not quite. - She did take away 'Free School Milk', but that was about it. Some British Industries failed because they were outdated and unwilling to change. Some (low tech, high-volume production) failed because they were unable to compete with their competitors in 'cheap labour' markets. Some (higher tech) failed because of poor quality control. Some failed through poor management - the management were determined to pick fights with the work force. and Some failed because the unions were determined to pick fights with the management. There were a variety of 'villains' - nobody was entirely to blame - nor was anybody innocent, either. There were also British manufacturers who adapted to changing technology, got one jump ahead - and stayed there! I was a guest at an Engineering Trade show in Orlando a few months ago. [i/ITSEC 2011.] The pass I was wearing identified me as a 'rubbernecker' - not a potential customer - and (perhaps) some of the people I spoke to were a little more forthright than they would have been had they thought they were in with a chance of flogging me (a few $million worth of) something. I spoke to a number of British firms. I asked one guy I spoke to: "What is the climate like in your sector? - Is it difficult to sell your goods at he moment?" He said (and I was really impressed!) "Life isn't easy. There is a lot of competition. Our potential customers are all hard-up and are trying to save money wherever possible. Our business is providing solutions which will allow them to save money and provided we continue to provide better solutions with better support at lower prices than our competitors, we won't have a problem. Life is hard, but we're doing OK." I doubt that person posts on this forum. I am (at times) still amazed by the negativity on this forum. Sheffield is the 5th largest city in the UK, so it should be statistically significant. I've no doubt that Sheffield has its share of both thickos and genii. I've no doubt that it has its share of lazy sods and its share of well-motivated hard workers. It does seem to have rather more of its share of people who are willing to write the city -and the country - off as a lost cause. Is that because Socialism failed a quarter of a century ago and many are unwilling to move into the current century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 It's not the worst idea but it hasn't taken off for lots of good reasons, not least selfishness. Something the Brits have in spades. Trickle down economics have not worked in the past. When it was tried in the 80s the people with the money spent it on imports which gave jobs and economic growth outside the UK. Labour are trying the same argument now by demanding a cut in VAT but the money would just be spent on Chinese workers. Job sharing sounds great but making up the shortfall in wages through tax incentives is just going to push up government spending when we really need to cut it right back. I know I always bang on about education but it really is the key to developing the country's skills when we will have to rely on a knowledge based economy. At a time when we need to be inventing, managing, developing and servicing the rest of the developing world we have chosen to dumb down to third world level and hand a big competitive advantage to our opponents such as Germany and France. The reality is that the people who do well are the well educated. Thirteen years of Labour have left a legacy of an uneducated underclass. In Sheffield that has been going on for years and we have three generations of the unemployable to feed and clothe and buy beer for. Undoubtedly Sheffield will be left behind in a knowledge based world. You only have to look at Detroit to see what will happen here. We need jobs that create wealth or lead to wealth creation, not meaningless public sector jobs that just soak up wealth. I agree with you on education, but what sort of education would you like to see? A lot of graduates are out of work. A lot of science graduates are out of work or in low paid lab work. Yet we keep being told these are needed. Engineering Graduates are finding it hard to compete with Chinese and German graduates. Vocational education seems to be a thing of the past because of cost. Would you like to see an academic education with Latin and Greek? I do think education should start in the home, and this has been sorely neglected in the recent past. Teachers can't do everything, and when faced with a 5 year old who cannot talk, hold a knife and fork, or go to the toilet we're starting from a very low baseline. A Chinese parent would think it a disgrace to have a child start school who could not write his name, count, and read simple words. Education has suffered greatly from being undermined by various governments and constant changes. Politicians can't even agree on what constitutes a good education for the modern world. I agree with your last point. But it's easier said than done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradescanthia Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh dear, here we go again. I think you'll find the reason that places like Poland and Lithuania are economic basket cases is because they were under Socialist rule for more than 50 years. A bit like Sheffield. Now they've ditched that ideology they are developing fast. The reason we don't go there is because their wages are lower. That's why they come here. The reason their wages are lower is because they are so much further back in the economic cycle after years of loony left rule. A lot like Sheffield. Jim, you have forgotten to take your medication again !!!! This obsession you have about Sheffield and 'its loony left' needs sorting. Why do you live in Sheffield ??? Do you think you can change anything ?? Why dont you move to Barnsley where you WOULD blow a gasket !! I personally come into contact with a LOT of Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians and Slovakians. Some have settled here, some intend to go back home when they have acheived their aim and bought/built property in their home countries. One Slovakian already owns a holiday home and rents it to Brits. Slovakia is becoming a holiday destination and the guy is now buying another property. A couple pair up, rent a room in a shared house and work as many hours as possible. They really have a work ethic and can see possibilities in their home countries. When those countries have 'caught up' I reckon the migrants will become just as brassed off as the Brit working for minimum rate and their work ethic will change. The British are not workshy, a bit of motivation [financially] would help. A lot of British are fed up, not workshy but whilst we are in recession and carrying a surplus of labour then nothing will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I agree with you on education, but what sort of education would you like to see? One that does what it say on the can. One which provides 16 yr olds who can produce rather better than this: "I am college myself and what to no can a college NUS Card be used for cheep bus fares my says hillsborough college and NUS on it." In college? Doing what? Reading English? - Or reading the bloody Beano? If the person who wrote that has English language at 'grade C or above' how did (s)he get it? If (s)he has managed to spend 11 or more years in school without learning basic grammar and without learning how to spell, would you be interested in employing him/her? I'd rather employ a Pole - particularly now that Pole tax has been scrapped. If I employ a Pole, I'll get somebody who speaks Polish, Russian, English (with luck) German (perhaps) Latvian (possibly) Estonian (if I'm lucky) and who is willing to work. If I employ a Brit, I'm likely to get somebody who is: "... college myself and what to no can a college NUS Card be used for cheep bus fares my says hillsborough college and NUS on it." Which one would you hire? That one couldn't even speak English. A lot of graduates are out of work. Perhaps because a lot of them have worthless degrees and are unemployable? A lot of science graduates are out of work or in low paid lab work. Yet we keep being told these are needed. Facts and figures, please. How many graduate: Biologists Chemists Physicists Mathematicians Microbiologists Biochemists Organic Chemists Physical Chemists With decent degrees (not a 'scrape' pass) do you have on your list of unemployed? Engineering Graduates are finding it hard to compete with Chinese and German graduates. Really? Can you provide evidence to support that (outrageous!) allegation? Last year, Germany was short 75,000 engineers. They're still short. British Engineers can't compete (in the UK) with German Engineers? Why would they bother? I'm not an engineer ... most recently, I was a lawyer. But I do have a (sort of) engineering background and the majority of my friends are engineers. I asked one of my friends (who owns an engineering company) "What chance would my son have of getting a job if he came to Germany?" (My friend happens to think {for some strange reason } that the sun shines out of my son's arse.) He said: "If he wants a a job, I've got one for him." I said "How about elsewhere?" He said: "He can get a job anywhere. The going rate (starting rate) for somebody with his qualifications is £60k." Not in England it's not. 'Engineering' is a dirty word. Vocational education seems to be a thing of the past because of cost. What do you mean by 'vocational education' - the State-run scheme was (is) crap. Under-funded and based on bullcrap. (I taught in the system and was challenged because I did not have an NVQ in English. Fair comment. I had GCE English Language at grade 1 GCE English Literature at grade 1 GCE English Literature (AO) at grade 1 Use of English (not a graded examination.) At that time, I had a masters' degree and a few other qualifications. Are you talking about 'VQ's or apprenticeships? Would you like to see an academic education with Latin and Greek? What's wrong with Latin and Greek? Mastery of either (or preferably both) of those two languages does suggest to a potential employer that the employee may have an enquiring mind? That (s)he might not be as thick as a midden full of pig crap? I'm not suggesting that people who do not study the classics are 'thick' - far from it! But when you encounter people - people in further education - who can get away with saying (they're doing the saying and you're doing the paying) "I am college myself and what to no can a college NUS Card be used for cheep bus fares my says hillsborough college and NUS on it" aren't you inclined to think that there might be advantages in a classical education after all? I do think education should start in the home, and this has been sorely neglected in the recent past. Teachers can't do everything, and when faced with a 5 year old who cannot talk, hold a knife and fork, or go to the toilet we're starting from a very low baseline. SO what are you going to do about that? (I share your pain. I don't know.) A Chinese parent would think it a disgrace to have a child start school who could not write his name, count, and read simple words. My grandma wouldn't have settled for that! When I went to school, I could already read up to (current ) year 3 standard. It does help. Education has suffered greatly from being undermined by various governments and constant changes. Politicians can't even agree on what constitutes a good education for the modern world. ... Agreed! - And many teachers (certainly those of my mother's vintage) quit when the interference from 'those who know better' got worse than the crap they were already expected to put up with in the job. I stopped teaching when the satisfaction I obtained from my work was outweighed by the crap they had to put up with from the government. Anna, you and I are probably singing off the same hymnsheet. If you've got 50 or 60,000 qualified engineers with masters' degrees, I can probably point them in the directions of jobs. I'd bet money on it. If, however, you're offering a bunch of unqualified 'wannabees' I'm less than optimistic. I will work with you to provide employment opportunities for all those highly-qualified engineers who you claim can't get jobs. I'll rise to the challenge. Give me the names and the qualifications and I will try to find the jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh, I'm prepared to reply to the Forum. If you, Anna, (or any others) give me the names and quals of the people who lack employment I will respond - quickly and publicly. But if you're going to give me a list of names who are: Not qualified Not literate Not reliable Please bugger off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 How does the Pole manage to live and work and save while you say UK citizens can't? Pay attention, you've been told ages ago or are you being deliberately obtuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 How do you determine who wants to work and who doesn't? Why hasn't anyone attempted to answer the question: How do you determine who wants to work and who doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackLakeland Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh dear, here we go again. I think you'll find the reason that places like Poland and Lithuania are economic basket cases is because they were under Socialist rule for more than 50 years. A bit like Sheffield. Now they've ditched that ideology they are developing fast. The reason we don't go there is because their wages are lower. That's why they come here. The reason their wages are lower is because they are so much further back in the economic cycle after years of loony left rule. A lot like Sheffield. That maybe so but its not Cricket to compare the worst of British workers to the best of overseas ones. Although, your point about eastern European workers suffering because of Communism is valid, I wasn't specifically speaking about European workers. It was more of a worldwide point. We have to be honest and be truthful. Britain is great and always has been. It has the best workers in the world. There are some who will try to degrade, probably rightly in some respects, but a lot of it comes from jealousy, self-loathing or new people who have come to live in the country with an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.