I1L2T3 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 So you don't understand the difference between murder and accidental killing then? Or you do understand it but choose to ignore it. The way some children have died in Gaza is horrific too. That is the point you don't seem to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The way some children have died in Gaza is horrific too. That is the point you don't seem to get. I'm not in the least suggesting that kids accidentally killed in warfare or indeed any other accident are less worthy than kids who are murdered. However creating moral equivalance between murder and accident is a very dangerous path to tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferno Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The IDF have a policy of targetting children. They deliberately shoot at children. No accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferno Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In a chilling interview conducted by Ha'aretz correspondent Amira Hass, an IDF sharpshooter admitted it was IDF policy to shoot at children http://dissidentvoice.org/Articles/SunilSufferChildren.htm According to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, 821 Palestinians have been killed since the second Intifada erupted on September 29, 2000. 16,661 Palestinians have been injured, many maimed for life. Palestinian children under the age of 18 represent about 1/4 of those killed. The Israeli military's killing of Palestinian children is not a sometimes accidental by-product of 34 years of occupation. It is in fact a matter of deliberate policy. In a chilling interview conducted by Ha'aretz correspondent Amira Hass, an IDF sharpshooter admitted it was IDF policy to shoot at children above the age of 12. Here is an excerpt (AH = Hass, IS = Sharpshooter): AH: You haven't shot children. IS: "All the sharpshooters haven't shot children." AH: But nonetheless there are children who were hit, wounded or killed after they were hit in the head. Unless these were mistakes. IS: "If they were children, they were mistakes." AH: Do they talk about this? IS: "They talk to us about this a lot. They forbid us to shoot at children." AH: How do they say this? IS: "You don't shoot a child who is 12 or younger." AH: That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed? IS: "Twelve and up is allowed. He's not a child any more, he's already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that." AH: Thirteen is bar mitzvah age. IS: "Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us." AH: Again: Twelve and up you're allowed to shoot children. IS: "Because this already doesn't look to me like a child by definition, even though in the United States a child can be 23." AH: Under international law, a child is defined as someone up to the age of 18. IS: "Up until 18 is a child?" AH: So, according to the IDF, it is 12? IS: "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media." AH: And children are from 12 down. Is there no order that between 12 and 18 you shoot at the legs and not the head? IS: "Of course we try to see to it that he really is over 20." AH: In the 10 seconds that you have. IS: "In the 10 seconds that I have, I have to estimate how old he is." AH: And in what direction the wind is blowing, and the deviation here and there, and which way he'll jump the next moment. IS: "Yes, but there are hardly any mistakes by sharpshooters. The mistakes are made by people who aren't sharpshooters." AH: And it turns out that they happen to hit the children's heads, and all this is just by chance? IS: "If you say you have seen children that have been hit in the head a lot, then it is sharpshooters." AH: So what you're saying is that our definition of children is different. IS: "Your definition is different." AH: Because for you it's someone who is 12. IS: "Yes." AH: But a child of 13 doesn't bear arms, no matter what you call him, a boy or a teenager or an adult. IS: "He isn't holding a gun but a firebomb, and in certain places it is possible also to fire on people who throw firebombs." ("Don't shoot till you can see they're over the age of 12," Ha'aretz, November 20, 2000) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'm not in the least suggesting that kids accidentally killed in warfare or indeed any other accident are less worthy than kids who are murdered. However creating moral equivalance between murder and accident is a very dangerous path to tread. The IDF try to operate 'carefully' but they do tend to put down heavy fire from tanks, artillery, aircraft. I don't think that the parents of children who are killed by weapons like that are likely to take any solace from the fact that some people think it was just an accident. Imagine it, your children killed in front of you by a tank shell or by cannon fire from an aircraft. Horrific. When I think about that and think about what happened in Toulouse and what has been happening to children in Syria I can't separate them. All leave me cold and desperately sad. If you can't see the tragedy of it all I can't discuss this any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferno Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In a damning indictment of Israeli military criminality and pathology, former New York Times Middle East Bureau chief Chris Hedges writes: "Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered-death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." (“Gaza Diary: Scenes From the Palestinian Uprising,” Harpers, October 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Dome Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 haha what a load of crap ^ well known fraud http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=4&x_context=2 you people believe anything you're told - as long as its not reported in the western media - it can be an "eye-witness account" and you lap it up because its what you want to hear. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Dome Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Muslims have been known to employ suicide bombers as young as 9! Thats barbaric, its not by some sickness that Israeli soldiers are wary of kids in conflict, its by experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygardener Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The IDF try to operate 'carefully' but they do tend to put down heavy fire from tanks, artillery, aircraft. I don't think that the parents of children who are killed by weapons like that are likely to take any solace from the fact that some people think it was just an accident. Imagine it, your children killed in front of you by a tank shell or by cannon fire from an aircraft. Horrific. When I think about that and think about what happened in Toulouse and what has been happening to children in Syria I can't separate them. All leave me cold and desperately sad. If you can't see the tragedy of it all I can't discuss this any more. Counter-battery fire, which the entire civilised world employs when under ranged attack, not just Israel, aims at the launch point. If the people launching the attack brought their kids to work, that is evidence of their inhumanity and they carry the responsibility for the results of inevitable counter-battery suppression fire. Yes it is tragic. But the people responsible for the tragedy are the terrorists who launch missiles surrounded by kids knowing full well the consequences. These people share the same worldview of the beast of Toulouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Muslims have been known to employ suicide bombers as young as 9! Thats barbaric, its not by some sickness that Israeli soldiers are wary of kids in conflict, its by experience. Of course it's barbaric. Don't make the mistake of thinking everybody who takes issue with the Israeli government is automatically some pro-Islamic Jew-hating nutjob. Plenty of Israeli Jews do not agree with the way their government operates and the things done in their name. If the Israeli army genuinely do treat all 9 year old Gazans as potential combatants something has gone really badly wrong, on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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