Snowbird Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 You didn't answer what your beliefs were in the previous posts you gave me some possible scenarios but never specified what your own belief was. So thankyou for clarifying it for me. I do have a further question. What do you mean by you believe Jesus was the son of God? The term means different things to different people so the more specific the better. Thankyou. Oh- sorry- never thought what I believed was of any great interest. As for Jesus being the son of God-- hard to clarify. For a start I do not believe in the devil, and original sin. therefore I do not believe that Jesus was sent to die for the redemption of sinners. I do believe God sent him as a teacher, guide and saviour. The early bible foretold a saviour would come from the house of David , therefore I have no problem with either the idea of Jesus being the son of Joseph or of an immaculate conception. In either case I believe god had a hand in the conception and endowed the child with what is commonly known as the Holy Spirit. I therefore believe Jesus grew up with a knowledge of his heavenly father as well as his earthly one, with foreknowledge of his mission, and that his teachings and miracles had a divine source. He was basically human however and always had the choice to rebel against Gods inner voice and I think that is where the temptation scenario comes from. Had he experienced a pre-existence in heaven I don't think the idea of temptation would have worked. Ie- if Jesus is an all powerful God, or lived in Heaven with God and knows he will return there after his life on earth -- and will one day return to rule the earth anyway what could the Devil offer him that he hasn't already got? He might have lived a bit longer and got away without the crucifiction but he stayed true to his purpose to the end. It was pretty certain he would ruffle feathers amongst the priests who thought they knew Gods will better than anyone . They had no intention of losing their power over the people just because of some young upstart. Teaching people that the love of money is evil was never designed to appeal to the wealthy and powerful whose lifestyles depended on it either so his life was predictably short but he did manage to get his message across in a number one best seller! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorba Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) //////////////////////// Edited June 10, 2012 by chorba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorba Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Do you think atheists should be ashamed of their lack of belief? jb Of course not, but there is nothing to be proud of. Same applies to monotheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorba Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) //////////////////////// Edited June 10, 2012 by chorba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowbird Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 If I believed in a god, I'd want to know as much as possible about that god. Not just to confirm my beliefs are justified, but to understand what that god wants of me. Well thats you-- not neccessarily what everyone else needs to do! I have read the bible and other historical sources but no-one on earth knows everything and I personally don't have a need to know that my beliefs are justified. I feel that they are and thats enough. If God wants anything of me I'm sure he will let me know and for the most part Jesus told us what he wanted of us-- to love one another. Do you also literally believe Prometheus was the son of Iapetus - or do accept that these characters of yesterday's religion(today's mythology) didn't actually exist? If yes to the latter, then: Greek myths ar pretty fantastic aren't they-- full of fabulous animals like your pink unicorn that there is no evidence ever existed.! I certainly wouldn't mind one though! 1) Why do you think Jesus existed and was the actual son of a god? Because I believe our universe and everything in it was Created. Throughout history men of science and wisdom have researched religion and given credence to a creator also. They put the bible together from many texts and sources which seem to collaborate each other including some written by the followers of Jesus. Even Mohammed and his followers accept his existence . I believe Gods spirit helps me find his truth. 2) Why do you think Prometheus(the son of a Titan) is fiction? See above! So really what you are saying is you've accepted, without question, other people's fiction as fact. Also see above! I have accepted nothing without question-- I have questioned the bible, the existence of God, Hawkin, Freud, Darwin, and the Qur'an, to name a few. Why do you assume that all Christians are gullable illiterates? You don't want to buy an invisible pink unicorn, do you? No thank you I got mine free with green shield stamps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denlin Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 You cannot deny that a lot of people have acquired their morals from religion. I think the argument is more like: they do not kill someone because it's not good and God doesn't like what's not good. I do deny that, your morals come from you and your parents not some mythical creature who we use as an excuse for good or evil. I do not intentionally harm any creature and I have been an atheist since the age of 13 in 1964 and most atheists are very moral and some Theists and indeed other religions are very evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I do deny that, your morals come from you and your parents not some mythical creature who we use as an excuse for good or evil. I do not intentionally harm any creature and I have been an atheist since the age of 13 in 1964 and most atheists are very moral and some Theists and indeed other religions are very evil Religions are very evil? Most atheists are very moral? Are you sure? Would it not be more accurate to say some people, regardless of wether they're religious or not are really immoral (what is evil?) and some people are moral, and that morality comes from a range of sources and varies from individual to individual in what form it takes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Oh- sorry- never thought what I believed was of any great interest. As for Jesus being the son of God-- hard to clarify. For a start I do not believe in the devil, and original sin. therefore I do not believe that Jesus was sent to die for the redemption of sinners. I do believe God sent him as a teacher, guide and saviour. The early bible foretold a saviour would come from the house of David , therefore I have no problem with either the idea of Jesus being the son of Joseph or of an immaculate conception. In either case I believe god had a hand in the conception and endowed the child with what is commonly known as the Holy Spirit. I therefore believe Jesus grew up with a knowledge of his heavenly father as well as his earthly one, with foreknowledge of his mission, and that his teachings and miracles had a divine source. He was basically human however and always had the choice to rebel against Gods inner voice and I think that is where the temptation scenario comes from. Had he experienced a pre-existence in heaven I don't think the idea of temptation would have worked. Ie- if Jesus is an all powerful God, or lived in Heaven with God and knows he will return there after his life on earth -- and will one day return to rule the earth anyway what could the Devil offer him that he hasn't already got? He might have lived a bit longer and got away without the crucifiction but he stayed true to his purpose to the end. It was pretty certain he would ruffle feathers amongst the priests who thought they knew Gods will better than anyone . They had no intention of losing their power over the people just because of some young upstart. Teaching people that the love of money is evil was never designed to appeal to the wealthy and powerful whose lifestyles depended on it either so his life was predictably short but he did manage to get his message across in a number one best seller! Thankyou Snowbird, could I ask you how, or why you came to that conclusion (again not taking the mic, just interested) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 You cannot deny that a lot of people have acquired their morals from religion. I think the argument is more like: they do not kill someone because it's not good and God doesn't like what's not good. I can't believe you actually went and did it. Do I have to mention God's penchant for mass murder and sadistic punishments in the Old Testament? Do I have to mention Moses revealing the 10 commandments (thou shalt not kill) and then killing thousands of his own people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denlin Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Religions are very evil? Most atheists are very moral? Are you sure? Would it not be more accurate to say some people, regardless of wether they're religious or not are really immoral (what is evil?) and some people are moral, and that morality comes from a range of sources and varies from individual to individual in what form it takes? Sorry what I meant to say was that there are evil people in most religions not that religions are evil but you have a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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