Do you believe in God?

[PaliRichard]

Sorry what I meant to say was that there are evil people in most religions not that religions are evil but you have a point

 

I would say there are 'evil' people in all religions personally.

 

Sorry, I wasn't having a go, but I thought it important to make the distinction.

[Ryedo40]

As for Jesus being the son of God-- hard to clarify. For a start I do not believe in the devil, and original sin. therefore I do not believe that Jesus was sent to die for the redemption of sinners.

 

So that's the central theme of Christianity gone - and the life of Jesus and three-quarters of the bible chucked out of the window.

 

I do believe God sent him as a teacher, guide and saviour.

 

Saviour for what? It wouldn't have anything to do with original sin, would it?

And what did he teach? In an earlier post, you absolutely agreed with me that nobody really knows what Jesus said because much of the bible is fiction and wrote by fallible people with agendas and biases.

 

...I believe god had a hand in the conception and endowed the child with what is commonly known as the Holy Spirit. I therefore believe Jesus grew up with a knowledge of his heavenly father as well as his earthly one, with foreknowledge of his mission, and that his teachings and miracles had a divine source.

 

Don't you think those ideas and mythological stories of miracles are just as fictional as the ones surrounding the gods and sons of gods in Greek mythology?

 

He was basically human however and always had the choice to rebel against Gods inner voice and I think that is where the temptation scenario comes from.

 

So you don't believe that the demi-god Jesus went out into the desert where he was tempted by the devil. At this rate, Jesus won't have an arm or leg to stand on.

 

Teaching people that the love of money is evil was never designed to appeal to the wealthy and powerful whose lifestyles depended on it either so his life was predictably short but he did manage to get his message across in a number one best seller!

 

But the "love" of money isn't necessarily evil, is it. Wealth helps support you, your family, and your community. And what he supposedly taught is hardly enlightening. In fact, what he supposedly taught makes me wonder if he wasn't just some cult-leader who went, with a bunch of followers, from town to town threatening people with doom and gloom so that they'd give their wealth to the poor("him and his followers being poor", that's understandable). Let's face it, threats and curses have always been a good way to manipulate people - and Jesus always seems to have plenty of food and places to stay while on his travels.

 

I think the above is much more plausible than the scenario you've been presenting.

[Chris_Sleeps]

You cannot deny that a lot of people have acquired their morals from religion.

I absolutely can. People can take the morality they like from religion, and reject that which they don't like. Very few people think it okay to stone a woman to death for adultery. The same book that tells you one moral also tells you something you find abhorent - I guarantee it.

[PaliRichard]

Ryedo, just a couple of (nit picking really) points.

 

Originally Posted by Snowbird

As for Jesus being the son of God-- hard to clarify. For a start I do not believe in the devil, and original sin. therefore I do not believe that Jesus was sent to die for the redemption of sinners.[/Quote]

 

So that's the central theme of Christianity gone - and the life of Jesus and three-quarters of the bible chucked out of the window.[/Quote]

 

I don't think the new Testament qualifies as three quarters of the Bible, I think what you've done is confused Christian belief with what's actually in the book.

 

Original sin isn't in the old Testament, so Jesus didn't die for anyones 'sins', because according to the OT there wasn't original sin to begin with, it's not until (I think John - please correct me if I'm wrong) that the idea of original sin appears.

 

Originally Posted by Snowbird

I do believe God sent him as a teacher, guide and saviour[/Quote]

 

Saviour for what? It wouldn't have anything to do with original sin, would it?And what did he teach? In an earlier post, you absolutely agreed with me that nobody really knows what Jesus said because much of the bible is fiction and wrote by fallible people with agendas and biases.[/Quote]

 

Probably not, see above. Snowbird is probably referring to Jesus being the Messiah. Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah but don't believe in original sin, they do however believe he will come on Judgement day to 'save' those who are worthy by defeating the anti Christ.

 

Like I said, just a bit of nit picking, but I always feel the need to clarify just for the sake of balancing the debate. Sorry

[Ryedo40]

Ryedo, just a couple of (nit picking really) points.

 

I don't think the new Testament qualifies as three quarters of the Bible, I think what you've done is confused Christian belief with what's actually in the book.

 

Original sin isn't in the old Testament, so Jesus didn't die for anyones 'sins', because according to the OT there wasn't original sin to begin with, it's not until (I think John - please correct me if I'm wrong) that the idea of original sin appears.

 

I should have been more specific. I meant the New Testament and not the OT. And yes, the idea of original sin stems from John & Paul and plays a central role in Christianity; and you are right, I am mixing the theology behind Christianity with what's in the NT. So thanks for picking me up on that.

 

 

Like I said, just a bit of nit picking, but I always feel the need to clarify just for the sake of balancing the debate. Sorry

 

That's fine.

[Snowbird]

Thankyou Snowbird, could I ask you how, or why you came to that conclusion (again not taking the mic, just interested)

 

You can ask - but I can't tell you any more than I already have-- aren't some people supposed to be able to tell instinctively when someone is lying? I have never been able to with people -- but with religion- something feels instinctively wrong - or right. Some people may say 'God speaks to me with an inner voice'--but I wouldn't be that presumptuous.

[chorba]

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Edited June 10, 2012 by chorba

[chorba]

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Edited June 10, 2012 by chorba

[chorba]

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Edited June 10, 2012 by chorba

[Snowbird]

So that's the central theme of Christianity gone - and the life of Jesus and three-quarters of the bible chucked out of the window.

 

The biggest part of the bible is the foundation of the Jewish religion and nothing to do with Christianity at all!

 

 

Saviour for what? It wouldn't have anything to do with original sin, would it?

And what did he teach? In an earlier post, you absolutely agreed with me that nobody really knows what Jesus said because much of the bible is fiction and wrote by fallible people with agendas and biases.

 

The usual concept of original sin is of the devil tempting Eve to disobey Gods laws in the garden of Eden. I don't believe in that but I do believe that God spoke to prophets and gave a list of commandments to Moses. Almost at once these 'commandments' were broken and most of the people went off and did whatever they felt like!

Jesus called God our heavenly father and as such I belive these so called commandments were issued for our own good much like any parent tries to teach his children what is best. Even the priests who were supposed to tell the people what was the right thing to do were getting it wrong so therefore I believe God sent Jesus to set the record straight. I did say parts of the bible was fiction and writen by fallible humanity especially the creation story which no-one was around to witness but their were many witness to the life of Jesus and though peoples perspectives may vary the background to his life seems pretty much consistently reported.

 

 

Don't you think those ideas and mythological stories of miracles are just as fictional as the ones surrounding the gods and sons of gods in Greek mythology?

 

I think God is capable of just about anything. The whole of creation is a miracle. Why is it more believable that objects heavier than air can float and fly , that we can send messages in seconds across the earth, that a tree can grow from a tiny seed, that a man can feel emotions like love and sadness, that a tiny insect can move objects many times heavier and larger than itself, than it is to accept a man could turn water into wine or heal the sick and bring people back from the dead ( even though that is now becoming common practice!)

 

 

So you don't believe that the demi-god Jesus went out into the desert where he was tempted by the devil. At this rate, Jesus won't have an arm or leg to stand on.

 

He might well have gone out into the desert to meditate alone. Once again the devil is that within all of us that brings selfishness, greed, insensitivity, etc-etc.

 

 

But the "love" of money isn't necessarily evil, is it. Wealth helps support you, your family, and your community. And what he supposedly taught is hardly enlightening. In fact, what he supposedly taught makes me wonder if he wasn't just some cult-leader who went, with a bunch of followers, from town to town threatening people with doom and gloom so that they'd give their wealth to the poor("him and his followers being poor", that's understandable). Let's face it, threats and curses have always been a good way to manipulate people - and Jesus always seems to have plenty of food and places to stay while on his travels.

 

Yes the love of money is evil. Why is that people have the need to amass so much more of it than they need to live? Why do Doctors, Vets, lawyers etc charge exhorbitant sums to help people in need.Just because a person goes to university and learns something of value, he doesn't have to charge huge amounts of money in order to use that knowledge to benefit other human beings? Money as no value but that which we place upon it. Wealth maintains an heirachy of oppression that we have grown to accept as the norm but it doesn't make it right!

Personally I think amassing money whilst other people are starving is definitely evil!!

 

Jesus found places to stay pretty much like any so-called celebrity would these days. Not only did some genuinely believe he was the messiah and want to hear what he had to say, a lot wanted just to be able to say 'I've met him you know - he stayed in my house!

I don't believe he threatened anyone with doom and gloom. He simply gave them options and left choices up to them.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Snowbird
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