PaliRichard Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Got to disagree. Just because you're ignorant of what x is doesn't mean you lack belief in it. This is the Islamic position. They believe in God not because God can be defined, but because they believe God has instructed them to do so, but in Islam the 'thing' (Allah) that instructed them is beyond human concepts. I think this is the case for some Christians and Hindu's too. It's also the case for non Theistic religions like Buddhism and Taoism, the 'ultimate' cannot be defined, but can be experienced. But I think non definition on this level is slightly different to those who try to define God but fail (God is love etc, but then why does he/her/it let people suffer). Trying to define the undefinable in my opinion is what gets Theists into hot water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yep, it's quite possible that the power of prayer works, not because there is some other super-natural being out there granting our wishes; but rather, because there are other dynamics at play. Namely, we are utilising our own being, and mental energies. That doesn't mean prayer works, that means the placebo effect works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Here in Indonesia, as you may have read, a planned concert by Lady Gaga was cancelled due to the threats from a small gang of religious Muslim radicals who claimed that she was Satanic etc. Yes, it's fine for someone to believe fantasy but when they use that distorted belief to impose their ideas on others, then everyone should object. I understand a young man in Indonesia has been sent to jail for two and a half years for the "crime" of writing “god does not exist” on a facebook page. Nice display of tolerance there. I'm afraid Indonesia is a country I will not be taking my tourist money to any time soon. Story here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootsBooster Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 For example, if you asked 10 people in the street do you believe in dasypodidae they would most likely say "Don't know, what the hell is a dasypodidae", they wouldn't plough straight in with a "no" simply because they don't know what it is. jb If you told them you can't define it to them though and repeated the question "do you believe in a dasypodidae?" what do you think their answer would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quisquose Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 For example, if you asked 10 people in the street do you believe in dasypodidae they would most likely say "Don't know, what the hell is a dasypodidae", they wouldn't plough straight in with a "no" simply because they don't know what it is. jb But they wouldn't plough in with a "yes" either, so they would lack belief in dasypodidae, making them the equivalent to my stance with respect to gods, agnostic atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barleycorn Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 This is the Islamic position. They believe in God not because God can be defined, but because they believe God has instructed them to do so, but in Islam the 'thing' (Allah) that instructed them is beyond human concepts. I think this is the case for some Christians and Hindu's too. It's also the case for non Theistic religions like Buddhism and Taoism, the 'ultimate' cannot be defined, but can be experienced. But I think non definition on this level is slightly different to those who try to define God but fail (God is love etc, but then why does he/her/it let people suffer). Trying to define the undefinable in my opinion is what gets Theists into hot water. I was more referring to being ignorant of things which can be defined. I think believing in the undefinable is a bit silly. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barleycorn Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 But they wouldn't plough in with a "yes" either, so they would lack belief in dasypodidae, making them the equivalent to my stance with respect to gods, agnostic atheist. No, they would be ignorant of whether or not they believe in them ie ignostic. Once you tell them that dasypodidae are actually armadillos they would no longer be ignorant (I would hope)... jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barleycorn Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) If you told them you can't define it to them though and repeated the question "do you believe in a dasypodidae?" what do you think their answer would be? I think holding a belief in something which is undefinable is a bit silly. If it is undefinable then it has no measurable properties, cannot influence the world in any way and in fact can be safely said to not exist. jb ETA: To take an earlier example from up thread if you asked someone "Do you believe in invisible, four sided pink triangles which exist outside of space and time, cannot be measured in any way and have a penchant for dry cured bacon?" I would hope the answer would be "Stop being silly, of course not". I would doubly hope they would go further and say that it is meaningless to even contemplate having a belief position in regards to such incoherent concepts. This should apply equally to an undefined, unmeasurable god. Edited June 15, 2012 by barleycorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie48 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 jb I just can't fathom it.Was that man what some might call an evangelical atheist?..that milk might have been sour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey19 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I will say a prayer wishing this thread reaches 100 pages. Let's see if my prayer is answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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