As an invited customer, can I steal from a shop?

[Rupert_Baehr]

Daft question.

 

You can indeed steal.

 

You may not steal, however.

 

If you get caught, you are liable to be prosecuted.

[anywebsite]

Daft question.

 

You can indeed steal.

 

You may not steal, however.

 

If you get caught, you are liable to be prosecuted.

 

There is a difference between stealing & breach of contract. Especially if the penalties for breaching that contract are shown to be unfair in court.

[Rupert_Baehr]

This is why petty shoplifting is usually a caution or small fine. Theft is wrong, but there are greater wrongs. I'd rather see somebody steal food than starve.

 

...

 

That's a load of crap, though - isn't it?

 

How many people starved to death in the UK during the last 10 years?

 

I suggest that the answer (if you exclude those who were starved deliberately by abusive carers) is approximately - or even exactly - Zero.

 

How many shoplifters were convicted in the UK during the same period?

 

So how many shoplifters stole goods to avoid starvation?

[MC Spyda]

They said starve, not starve to death. And even if they did, chances are they didn't mean it literally...

[anywebsite]

That's a load of crap, though - isn't it?

 

How many people starved to death in the UK during the last 10 years?

 

I suggest that the answer (if you exclude those who were starved deliberately by abusive carers) is approximately - or even exactly - Zero.

 

How many shoplifters were convicted in the UK during the same period?

 

So how many shoplifters stole goods to avoid starvation?

 

A lot of shoplifters steal to survive. People steal food to eat, people shoplift so they can sell the goods for money for food. Often it's money for drugs, but they need food too. Most shoplifters that I've known were in pretty dire straights. Just because people don't starve doesn't mean there isn't any hardship. The country would have to be in famine conditions before people died of starvation. You would steal food before you starved, if there was food available to steal & it was your last option. There are people that slip through the benefits safety net & there are drug addicts with kids.

 

Maybe you've never really been that short of money, or known anybody that has, so you can't really understand, but there are some people where stealing is one of the few options they have left. It's not as bad as seeing your child go hungry.

[Rupert_Baehr]

There is a difference between stealing & breach of contract. Especially if the penalties for breaching that contract are shown to be unfair in court.

 

 

You're obviously not a lawyer :hihi:

 

There is a difference between a pothole and a wall, too ... but why would anybody bother to mention that?

 

Stealing has been defined many times on this forum.

 

A person is guilty of theft if:

He dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention

of permanently depriving the the other of it.

 

We can 'bend the rules ' a bit. If you take a pound coin from me, put it on a horse, win (making - say - 25 quid) and give me two pounds back you are still guilty of theft because although you returned the value of the money you took from me, you did not return the exact item and you did intend to deprive me of the enjoyment of that exact item. Theft is a criminal offence.

 

'Breach of Contract' is not a criminal offence. It is actionable in Civil Law.

 

Those who are PROSECUTED and CONVICTED of criminal offences are PUNISHED. (Don't forget those words.)

 

Those who are sued under Civil Law and are held to be LIABLE may be required to COMPENSATE their victims.

 

Different words, different meanings.

[anywebsite]

That's what I was saying, that's why overstaying in a free parking space isn't as bad as shoplifting. Shoplifting is stealing, it's depriving the shop owner of a tangible good that they could sell, it's a criminal offence, you could be arrested & prosecuted for it, usually it'll be a caution or small fine. Overstaying in a free car park is arguable, in a civil court, especially when you're being presented with ridiculous invoices worded to look like official fines that bear no relation to their losses. If you look at the original post he was trying to compare a minor breach of a possibly unfair contract with petty theft. I'm sure a lawyer would say they're different situations, covered by different laws. Worse things happen than shoplifting, but shoplifting is still worse than overstaying in a free car park.

[Rupert_Baehr]

...Maybe you've never really been that short of money, or known anybody that has, so you can't really understand, but there are some people where stealing is one of the few options they have left.

 

Let's start with this bit first. In 1970, I lived for 3 weeks on 1/7d. I didn't steal - but I was bloody hungry. (I wasn't aware that I was entitled to 'benefits' - I hadn't got a job. Starving (and the threat of being kicked out on the streets) is one hell of an incentive to get a job. I grew up in an impoverished family (not in the UK) and when I came here, I wasn't aware that there were things called 'handouts' (not all immigrants come here on the scrounge.)

 

Stealing was never an option.

 

A lot of shoplifters steal to survive. People steal food to eat, people shoplift so they can sell the goods for money for food. Often it's money for drugs, but they need food too. Most shoplifters that I've known were in pretty dire straights. Just because people don't starve doesn't mean there isn't any hardship. The country would have to be in famine conditions before people died of starvation. You would steal food before you starved, if there was food available to steal & it was your last option.

 

Bolleaux (which is sort of like Gattocks, but less fattening.)

 

The majority of shoplifters steal for 3 reasons:

 

1. They think they can get away with it (A significant number of thieves can afford to pay, but are in it for 'the thrill' (or something)

 

2. They are - for some reason - too lazy to go and work. Drugs don't come cheap and minimum wage doesn't keep you going for long.

 

3. They're too thick to do anything else.

 

(Oh, you're not allowed to say that! - Why not?)

 

If you were to go to your local Tesco store and to tell the manager you would bring back all the carts and clear the parking lot of litter and in return you would like your choice of the expired items so that you could stay alive, what do you think he would say?

 

(If I was the store manager, I'd hire you on the spot!)

 

Nobody starves in the UK - other than those who use all their money to buy drugs.

 

I feel very sorry for those people. Drugs don't come cheap, decent-quality product is often rare and addicts don't have a lot of choice.

 

Please, PLEASE campaign for cheap (better still FREE) supplies of 'clean' drugs for addicts.

 

Cut out the middle man!- Let the State buy up the drugs at source, return them to the UK, process them and supply them. That would be far cheaper than the amount the state currently spends on incarcerating people who committed crimes to acquire drugs or for those poor unfortunates who committed crimes whilst under the influence. The amount saved by the insurance companies (and those who were robbed) would also be significant.

 

If you kept the drug users out of jail, it would make a bit more space for the Prescotts who supply them.

[anywebsite]

You wouldn't starve when there's a shop full of food around the corner would you? Starvation only happens when shoplifting isn't an option.

 

I'm doing what I can to campaign for good clean supplies for drug addicts. I'm right with you on those last few paragraphs, unfortunately that doesn't happen yet. Heroin addicts should be prescribed pure heroin for free by their doctors. Opium should be bought legally from Afghanistan to be used for legal pharmaceutical grade drugs. The black market in drugs should be eliminated. It'd cut so much crime it'd be shocking, we'd soon have a prison population comparable to other countries.

[Rupert_Baehr]

You wouldn't starve when there's a shop full of food around the corner would you? Starvation only happens when shoplifting isn't an option.

 

Of course not. - But 'Personal Pride', 'Personal standards' and 'Upbringing' made such actions total anathema. I've had some pretty disgusting jobs and cleaned up far more than my share of vomit and excrement. - Workers who receive p*ss poor pay are often lucky if the worst thing they have to clear up is p*ss. There is no salary too large () but there is no job too menial. Work itself engenders pride.

 

I'm doing what I can to campaign for good clean supplies for drug addicts. I'm right with you on those last few paragraphs, unfortunately that doesn't happen yet. Heroin addicts should be prescribed pure heroin for free by their doctors. Opium should be bought legally from Afghanistan to be used for legal pharmaceutical grade drugs. The black market in drugs should be eliminated. It'd cut so much crime it'd be shocking, we'd soon have a prison population comparable to other countries.

 

We're singing off the same Hymn sheet here! I worked in prisons for many years and I have a number of colleagues who would corroborate my evidence.

 

Considering male prisoners (I do have current figures for females - and they're far worse, but let's stick with males (If you want to PM me, I've got recent stats [together with a presentation] which make disturbing reading.)

 

Roughly 86% of male prisoners suffer from mental illness.

Approximately 80% of male prisoners are incarcerated for drug related offences.

 

I've met some nice people in prisons

I've met very many sick people in prisons

I've met one or two people in prison who were actually innocent (though I met far more who wanted to persuade me that they were innocent.

I've met more than a few people in prison who should never (IMO) be released.

But I've met a disturbingly large number of people in prison who should never have been sent there in the first place.

 

I've no problem with legalisation (or at least, legalised supply to addicts) of drugs, but it would be somewhat gauche to ignore that many drugs can (or do) cause mental illness. Many of the people I met who were mentally ill were ill as a result of their drug usage.

 

Mental illness is not a good reason to keep somebody in prison ... unless, of course, the illness is incurable (that's why there are 'secure units'.

 

Here's a question for you:

 

If you have people who are mentally ill and you have no places in psychiatric units for them, where should you put them?

 

I know all about 'Care in the community' on the streets.

 

It's a disgrace.

 

The Chinese execute huge numbers of people - and for that, they are derided.

 

The Americans execute far too many people - and for that they too are derides.

 

The Brits lock up the mentally ill, release them without treatment and allow them to kill other members of society. - Nobody talks about that.