Workers rights or lack of

[xenia]

Fair point. I won't deny that there is a big imbalance between expectations and reality, currently (given a particular skillset/educational level). I expatriated myself in 1992 for the exact same reasons/circumstances.

But you take 2 extremes (cruise ship staffing by 3rd world workers vs "benefit scroungers"), which are not that representative in the grand scheme of things, where the middle ground (or, well, opposite positions slightly offset from the middle ground) is closer to the reality.

 

It is not completely unrealistic for UK teens (to A-level at least) to expect better jobs, pay and conditions than Goan teens in this day and age, still. But not for much longer, granted.

 

My take on this, is that the (essentially Western/1st world) recession is having its "global levelling" effect (wealth and skills redistribution) much faster than many Gvts expected. The gradual removal of meritocratic principles in Western education systems is going to be cruelly felt in years and decades to come.

 

Friends and acquaintances think we work our kid daughter too hard with school/homework - I like to think we're just preparing her as best we can for what's coming (for every EU or US jobseeker educated to degree level, there's at least 1000 CN with half their expectations and prepared to put twice as much in...and who soon will be just as mobile).

 

Maybe we dont agree on some of the detail but you make a lot of sense.

[xenia]

What rediculously high wages? The vast majority of people in this country are paid less than £24,000, and I would say that in Sheffield it's a good deal less than this.

The high cost of living requires a minimum wage to make simply existing in this economy possible.

In emerging economies the workers are paid peanuts for long hard hours, while the factory owners do very nicely. It's called exploitation, and it's wrong

 

Wages are ridiculouly high, as are benefits, compared to our competitors. What we must plan for is the ongoing downward spiral of economic activity in the west generally and the massive progress in China, India and elsewhere. Already we are seeing increases in the cost of basic food stuffs due to the increasing demand of a growing middle class in these countries. A middle class supported by a low paid woking class where "benefits" are non existent.

 

To keep on improving the NMW and not forcing the costs of benefits down will eventually ruin us. (sorry, we are ruined already due to the last LABOUR government).

 

You say exploitation is wrong, the Chinese argue that they are short of many natural resouces but have manpower in abundance, they will never allow their people to have anywhere near the "rights" you seem to feel are their due. Consequently unless we find some way in which to make ourselves competitive we will evetually lose out, go bust, and the British "working man and woman will share a standard of living similair to a chinese peasant.

 

When this happens maybe the prophecy of Lenin will come true "those who will not work shall not eat."

[bongo_fish]

me personally have seen the rights of workers getting less and less. i know of jobs having zero hour contracts/ workers not getting holiday pay. feel free to add your own lack of workers rights that may affect you or someone you know

 

My dad worked unpaid overtime for his ex-boss

[xenia]

My dad worked unpaid overtime for his ex-boss

 

Very good to read, obviously a good boss and a conscientous employee.

[Anna B]

Wages are ridiculouly high, as are benefits, compared to our competitors. What we must plan for is the ongoing downward spiral of economic activity in the west generally and the massive progress in China, India and elsewhere. Already we are seeing increases in the cost of basic food stuffs due to the increasing demand of a growing middle class in these countries. A middle class supported by a low paid woking class where "benefits" are non existent.

 

To keep on improving the NMW and not forcing the costs of benefits down will eventually ruin us. (sorry, we are ruined already due to the last LABOUR government).

 

You say exploitation is wrong, the Chinese argue that they are short of many natural resouces but have manpower in abundance, they will never allow their people to have anywhere near the "rights" you seem to feel are their due. Consequently unless we find some way in which to make ourselves competitive we will evetually lose out, go bust, and the British "working man and woman will share a standard of living similair to a chinese peasant.

 

When this happens maybe the prophecy of Lenin will come true "those who will not work shall not eat."

 

So actually, you agree with me - we are becoming a third world country. What we disagree on is how it can be averted. You think we have to fall to their level to become competative, (which means we WILL be a third world country,) I think we should help them to rise up to our level. There is enough to go round.

 

China is a strange form of communism. There is already a burgeoning middle class running their own businesses, a sprinkling of millionaires, a highly educated core of young graduates, thriving modern cities with everything you would expect, plenty of resources, and also millions of poor peasants living in the countryside, who are being dragged into the 21st century.

 

It is mainly in the industrial cities that workers are being exploited (often by Western multinationals,) and living in terrible conditions because they cannot afford proper accommodation, often sleeping in dormitories away from their families. How long do you think people will put up with this when they see others getting rich from their labour?

 

The vast majority of these hard working people need unions or the like, forcing their wages up, to see that they get their fair share of the cake, or maybe their form of communism will see to it that they are looked after properly once the money really starts to flow. Who knows?

 

The measure of a third world country is to do with the widening gap between rich and poor. The rising cost of foodstuffs is actually mainly to do with speculation in the commodities markets rather than shortages. The food is there, but people are so poorly paid they can't afford to buy it. Same with housing and other living expenses. Is that what you want to see here?

 

It's all about equitable distribution of resources. A fair days pay for a fair days work. That means enough money, in line with the local cost of living, to live a decent life.

[xenia]

So actually, you agree with me - we are becoming a third world country. What we disagree on is how it can be averted. You think we have to fall to their level to become competative, (which means we WILL be a third world country,) I think we should help them to rise up to our level. There is enough to go round.

 

China is a strange form of communism. There is already a burgeoning middle class running their own businesses, a sprinkling of millionaires, a highly educated core of young graduates, thriving modern cities with everything you would expect, plenty of resources, and also millions of poor peasants living in the countryside, who are being dragged into the 21st century.

 

It is mainly in the industrial cities that workers are being exploited (often by Western multinationals,) and living in terrible conditions because they cannot afford proper accommodation, often sleeping in dormitories away from their families. How long do you think people will put up with this when they see others getting rich from their labour?

 

The vast majority of these hard working people need unions or the like, forcing their wages up, to see that they get their fair share of the cake, or maybe their form of communism will see to it that they are looked after properly once the money really starts to flow. Who knows?

 

The measure of a third world country is to do with the widening gap between rich and poor. The rising cost of foodstuffs is actually mainly to do with speculation in the commodities markets rather than shortages. The food is there, but people are so poorly paid they can't afford to buy it. Same with housing and other living expenses. Is that what you want to see here?

 

It's all about equitable distribution of resources. A fair days pay for a fair days work. That means enough money, in line with the local cost of living, to live a decent life.

 

I absolutely respect what you say and agree with a fair proportion of it. I have spent some time in China and although I cannot pretend to fully understand their culture do not feel that any form of western style union activity would be tolerated now or in the future. I come back to the stated position of the Chinese government some years ago when it ssaid it regarded its population as an asset in the context that we may feel North Sea oil was an asset.

 

It seems to me that culturally these developing countries are not as sensitive to the rights ordinary people and will use them to further what the government feels is the common good.

 

If we could in some way encourage these devoloping countries to grant the rigths we see as normal we would indeed solve the problem as they would cease to be able to produce goods cheaply and we would compete on a level playing field.

 

However, I predict this will not happen, with over a million soldiers and a huge Police service the Chinese heirarchy has the populace under its thumb, it is ruthless, (remember Tianeman Square?)

 

We can hope for the best, but in reality we should plan for the worst and the fact is that whilst we pay too much in wages and benefits we will not compete. Consequently we will see living standards decline and we will become he third world country.

 

Socialists and Union members can and will blame Tories and Bankers and Businessmen anyone but themselves. I believe we are in decline, and socialist policies are the root cause of that decline.

[Mecky]

Put all the poor in a workhouse and whip them on the hour every hour .... etc

[tinfoilhat]

I do see what you mean, and agree up to a point. However, a small company is one thing, or even a bigger one who is facing difficulties can maybe be excused, but many of the biggest companies are making vast profits and paying out monster salaries at the top, whilst scrimping on wages at the lower levels affecting people who can least afford it.

 

They use their staff's fear of redundancy to keep them in line. Would you want to 'roll up sleeves' for a company who cares so little for its staff's wellbeing?

 

It works both ways.

 

The spectre of redundancy doesnt always come from to top. Sometimes it the unions. In my experience is some poisonous little troll who "thinks" he knows something and takes it further. These people are totally disastrous for any company. You know the type - always banging on how rubbish the place is, always make a big deal about looking for another job (but never getting one) and bringing moral down and down.

 

A company mainly gets the staff it deserves. If it treats them badly, they'll have a revolving door employment policy and crap staff. Total fear of redundancy will also produce crap staff - that's no motivation after a while, just indifference and it might go under as a result.

[xenia]

The spectre of redundancy doesnt always come from to top. Sometimes it the unions. In my experience is some poisonous little troll who "thinks" he knows something and takes it further. These people are totally disastrous for any company. You know the type - always banging on how rubbish the place is, always make a big deal about looking for another job (but never getting one) and bringing moral down and down.

 

A company mainly gets the staff it deserves. If it treats them badly, they'll have a revolving door employment policy and crap staff. Total fear of redundancy will also produce crap staff - that's no motivation after a while, just indifference and it might go under as a result.

 

Spot on. The NUM was full of them. Thank god they were consigned to the deep recesses of becoming South Yorkshire Councillors.

[xenia]

Put all the poor in a workhouse and whip them on the hour every hour .... etc

 

 

You would need to build an expensive workhouse, whats wrong with tents? Re whipping, how much an hour would you pay whippers?

 

PS Your mate Mr Soft is besotted by gay people, are you into whipping?