Muslims Slaughter "Apostate" in Tunisia

[Rand Hobart]

How could they show that on national TV?

 

 

Was it shown on national TV?

According to Wafa Sultan in her book "A God Who Hates" it is because they love death as we in the west love life.

DVDs of beheadings are watched all over the middle east/Muslim world so this would have not been as shocking as if it was shown on the 10 O'clock news on BBC1, which is sanitized anyway.

[HighGreens35]

My word are we still on this!

 

I love Islamic threads on here, they're always so balanced.

 

Why is it that when anyone tries pointing out the context of Islamic teachings we are labeled 'apologists'?

 

Yes there are 'Muslims' who claim that death is the penalty for leaving Islam, there are also those that don't, yet if I suggest Islam (understood in context) probably wouldn't accept that I am called an apologist yet someone who takes their Islamic knowledge from 'the Sun' seems to think that their perception of it is perfectly accurate!

 

The truth of the matter is that within Islam there is disagreement and it is only with understanding the faith and the context of its teaching and the nature of how its scriptures have been transmitted that we will get a full picture of what Islam is.

 

So does that make me an apologist? Well no, there is plenty in Islam I disagree with (if I didn't I would be Muslim), but I do feel understanding the difference between what the religion teaches and how it is interpreted by some of its followers is the beginning of being able to mutually explore and educate and hopefully change it from within.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of ignorance 'Islam teaches death to apostates', with no context of understanding will only fuel the fire of misunderstanding and will inevitably lead to more horrific acts like this.

Btw, Zakir Naik, who someone linked to is a perfect example of someone who uses the negative (and flawed) impression that the west has of Islam to colour Muslim opinion against us. In my opinion he is no more a 'scholar' than I am a space pilot. To say some of the 'facts' he gives about other religions are innacurate is an understatement to say the least.

 

 

Context? What possible justification can context provide?

[mj.scuba]

The truth of the matter is that within Islam there is disagreement and it is only with understanding the faith and the context of its teaching and the nature of how its scriptures have been transmitted that we will get a full picture of what Islam is.

I'm not sure we can get a single picture of what Islam is. Like all religions, it is interpreted and followed differently by different peoples across the world. What we do know, is that there are peace loving Muslims, and there is a hate filled intolerant brand of Islam.

 

Unfortunately, it is the latter that is mostly practised where Islam is taken most seriously, where it has the vast majority of it's followers, and where it's followers are the most devout. So it is therefore not unreasonable that these attitudes are used to generalise. Taken globally, those places where Islam is violent and intolerant represent the vast majority of the global Muslim population.

 

So does that make me an apologist? Well no, there is plenty in Islam I disagree with (if I didn't I would be Muslim), but I do feel understanding the difference between what the religion teaches and how it is interpreted by some of its followers is the beginning of being able to mutually explore and educate and hopefully change it from within.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of ignorance 'Islam teaches death to apostates', with no context of understanding will only fuel the fire of misunderstanding and will inevitably lead to more horrific acts like this.

 

I agree with you here, it is all in the interpretation. But I would say it does not need any context. What context is possibly needed to understand killing apostates (or any other violent and repressive tendancies they have)? Whatever context or spin you try to put on it, it's still wrong and abhorrent.

 

Change will be difficult, practices such as killing apostates are nothing less than a throw back to medieval times. We used to do the same, we used to burn heretics at the stake for example. But that was hundreds of years ago and thankfully Christian/Western nations evolved. Islam itself makes it almost impossible for it to change, because it punishes free thought, and it's followers in the places where it needs to change the most, are the most oppresive of change and champions of intolerant Islam. Rather than seeking change and modernisation, they would rather see it imposed on the rest of the world.

[HighGreens35]

I'm not sure we can get a single picture of what Islam is. Like all religions, it is interpreted and followed differently by different peoples across the world. What we do know, is that there are peace loving Muslims, and there is a hate filled intolerant brand of Islam.

 

Unfortunately, it is the latter that is mostly practiced where Islam is taken most seriously, where it has the vast majority of it's followers, and where it's followers are the most devout. So it is therefore not unreasonable that these attitudes are used to generalize. Taken globally, those places where Islam is violent and intolerant represent the vast majority of the global Muslim population.

 

 

 

I agree with you here, it is all in the interpretation. But I would say it does not need any context. What context is possibly needed to understand killing apostates (or any other violent and repressive tendencies they have)? Whatever context or spin you try to put on it, it's still wrong and abhorrent.

 

Change will be difficult, practices such as killing apostates are nothing less than a throw back to medieval times. We used to do the same, we used to burn heretics at the stake for example. But that was hundreds of years ago and thankfully Christian/Western nations evolved. Islam itself makes it almost impossible for it to change, because it punishes free thought, and it's followers in the places where it needs to change the most, are the most oppressive of change and champions of intolerant Islam. Rather than seeking change and modernization, they would rather see it imposed on the rest of the world.

 

Look at the foundations of Islam. I see no hope in modernization.

[PaliRichard]

(and HighGreen35)

 

 

I'm not sure we can get a single picture of what Islam is. Like all religions, it is interpreted and followed differently by different peoples across the world. What we do know, is that there are peace loving Muslims, and there is a hate filled intolerant brand of Islam[/Quote]

 

There is indeed.

 

Unfortunately, it is the latter that is mostly practised where Islam is taken most seriously, where it has the vast majority of it's followers, and where it's followers are the most devout. So it is therefore not unreasonable that these attitudes are used to generalise. Taken globally, those places where Islam is violent and intolerant represent the vast majority of the global Muslim population[/Quote]

 

I think we should be careful in this. The majority of the global Islamic population living in areas where the violence and intolerance is practiced in law is not necessarily the same as the majority of the global Islamic population accepting these attitudes. This is part of the reason why I think we should educate rather than react against these attitudes, because the majority of Muslims, I don't believe do accept this, and of those that do, I would hazard a guess (and it is just a guess) that many of those haven't been given the opportunity to recieve alternative ideasor have been deliberately misled into thinking this is justified.

 

I agree with you here, it is all in the interpretation. But I would say it does not need any context. What context is possibly needed to understand killing apostates (or any other violent and repressive tendancies they have)? Whatever context or spin you try to put on it, it's still wrong and abhorrent[/Quote]

 

The context is vitally important, many things we find aborrhant in Islam are related to the context of the times in which it developed. If the context of some of the teachings is understood, then the attitudes we have towards those teachings may change. If we take, for example, the context of apostates, it is very unlikely that someone converting to Christianity should be treated as one, or, according to the Quran, that any apostate should be killed. If we can share this and work with Muslims and build understanding then we are far more likely to acheive change. If we ignore the context and merely say Islam is wrong for killing apostates (I agree btw, that killing anyone is wrong) then it is more likely to be interpreted as a 'gut' reaction against Islam itself, rather than a balanced view that we disagree with some interpretation, and as such we would probably see an increase in such behaviour.

 

Change will be difficult, practices such as killing apostates are nothing less than a throw back to medieval times. We used to do the same, we used to burn heretics at the stake for example. But that was hundreds of years ago and thankfully Christian/Western nations evolved. Islam itself makes it almost impossible for it to change, because it punishes free thought, and it's followers in the places where it needs to change the most, are the most oppresive of change and champions of intolerant Islam. Rather than seeking change and modernisation, they would rather see it imposed on the rest of the world.

 

I agree in part, but unfortunately those who are the 'champions' of an intolerant Islam use our reaction against such behaviour to increase their hold on normal Muslims to make us look like we are against them rather than the aspects of Islam we disagree with. These are the very same methods they use to radicalize people.

 

It's not a case of pretending we aren't disgusted with such things, it's a case of differentiating between what the aspects are that we disagree with and Isalm as a religion. For this we need to look at Islam in context. Both the context of its developement and the context of which teachings are truly Islamic and which are used to advance the personal ideals of someone within Islam who has a particular agenda.

 

It is only by doing this, alongside Muslims that change will come about. If we don't do this we will continue to be seen with the same skewed perception by normal, everyday Muslims as what we percieve to be Islam, which rarely takes into account of the normal, every day Muslim.

[HighGreens35]

There is indeed.

 

 

 

I think we should be careful in this. The majority of the global Islamic population living in areas where the violence and intolerance is practiced in law is not necessarily the same as the majority of the global Islamic population accepting these attitudes. This is part of the reason why I think we should educate rather than react against these attitudes, because the majority of Muslims, I don't believe do accept this, and of those that do, I would hazard a guess (and it is just a guess) that many of those haven't been given the opportunity to recieve alternative ideasor have been deliberately misled into thinking this is justified.

 

 

 

The context is vitally important, many things we find aborrhant in Islam are related to the context of the times in which it developed. If the context of some of the teachings is understood, then the attitudes we have towards those teachings may change. If we take, for example, the context of apostates, it is very unlikely that someone converting to Christianity should be treated as one, or, according to the Quran, that any apostate should be killed. If we can share this and work with Muslims and build understanding then we are far more likely to acheive change. If we ignore the context and merely say Islam is wrong for killing apostates (I agree btw, that killing anyone is wrong) then it is more likely to be interpreted as a 'gut' reaction against Islam itself, rather than a balanced view that we disagree with some interpretation, and as such we would probably see an increase in such behaviour.

 

 

 

I agree in part, but unfortunately those who are the 'champions' of an intolerant Islam use our reaction against such behaviour to increase their hold on normal Muslims to make us look like we are against them rather than the aspects of Islam we disagree with. These are the very same methods they use to radicalize people.

 

It's not a case of pretending we aren't disgusted with such things, it's a case of differentiating between what the aspects are that we disagree with and Isalm as a religion. For this we need to look at Islam in context. Both the context of its developement and the context of which teachings are truly Islamic and which are used to advance the personal ideals of someone within Islam who has a particular agenda.

 

It is only by doing this, alongside Muslims that change will come about. If we don't do this we will continue to be seen with the same skewed perception by normal, everyday Muslims as what we percieve to be Islam, which rarely takes into account of the normal, every day Muslim.

 

Nope not buying it, to much to often to many excuses, for way to long.

[Teddybare]

I don't think title should be "Muslims slaughter...." I think it should be "complete nutters slaughter...." just happened to be in a Muslim country. I'm not defending Islam or any religion for that matter but this type of atrocity could just have easily happened in a Christian community in the middle east or Africa.

There are tribes in Africa which subscribe to Christianity yet keep their pagan beliefs along side it. It's less well reported but in several places in central Africa, the first born child is eaten by its grandparents in ethnic groups we would consider Christian.

There are also middle eastern Christians who partake in honour killings and other horrible acts.

I contend that it is just unlucky that the vast majority of these nutty extremists happen to be Muslim. The fact that Islam seems unwilling to evolve and modernise does seem to make these events more common.

[LeMaquis]

The fact that Islam seems unwilling to evolve and modernise....

 

Whereas the Catholic Church.....

[HighGreens35]

Whereas the Catholic Church.....

 

Where are these Catholics cutting/slicing heads off?

[HighGreens35]

I don't think title should be "Muslims slaughter...." I think it should be "complete nutters slaughter...." just happened to be in a Muslim country. I'm not defending Islam or any religion for that matter but this type of atrocity could just have easily happened in a Christian community in the middle east or Africa.

There are tribes in Africa which subscribe to Christianity yet keep their pagan beliefs along side it. It's less well reported but in several places in central Africa, the first born child is eaten by its grandparents in ethnic groups we would consider Christian.

There are also middle eastern Christians who partake in honour killings and other horrible acts.

I contend that it is just unlucky that the vast majority of these nutty extremists happen to be Muslim. The fact that Islam seems unwilling to evolve and modernise does seem to make these events more common.

 

In what way can Islam modernize and still be Islam?