I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 while eurobonds are not that bad an idea, they relative strength of the german economy to the rest of the eurozone economy means that to all intents and purposes they will be german bonds but the money will be spread around the rest of the eurozone. under these circumstances, it's not surprising that germany wants some sort of guarantee that there is some real external controls over individual countries budgets and spending. i would imagine if it was the uk in this situation then we'd be wanting the same. The guarantees would mean taking the EU in a direction that was never intended. It was about a harmonious union not about forcing countries closer as a knee-jerk reaction. So, yeah Germany wants its guarantees but the rest of the Eurozone should be seeking some form of guarantee over Germany's future actions in return. The EU was never meant to be dominated by a single state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 One things for sure, the whole European union is in one hell of a mess, and somethings got to happen sooner rather than later. There are giant implications for all of us, yet the Forun's gone deadly quiet on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 The guarantees would mean taking the EU in a direction that was never intended. It was about a harmonious union not about forcing countries closer as a knee-jerk reaction. So, yeah Germany wants its guarantees but the rest of the Eurozone should be seeking some form of guarantee over Germany's future actions in return. The EU was never meant to be dominated by a single state. If the EU wants Germany to bail them out, surely they can't expect an open blank cheque from the Germans, it is only fair that checks and balances are put in place to ensure that a crisis like this can never happen again. I've been saying for ages that close political ties will be the pound of blood that the EU must pay, if they want bailing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddybare Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Troubles me that Germany even still exists as a state, never mind the most powerful and successful one in Europe. I believe we are witnessing a modern day Franco-German empire taking ownership of the rest of the EU and I wonder if that's what they had in mind since its conception. Using the economic crisis as an excuse for routing all the last remnants of socialism in Europe, taking over nationalised industries in Greece and inflicting austerity on old adversaries. I also don't believe the targeting of smaller eu member states by international speculators and credit rating agencies happened by coincidence at a time when the euro was overtaking the dollar and was set to become the new international currency. But then I do go to work every day in a tin foil lined hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag82 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 The EU was set up to prevent Nationalism in general and Hitlerian National Socialism in particular. It has nothing to do with a 'Common Market' the GATT agreements ensure access to Europe's markets. The EU allows 'dumping' by non-EU countries to the detriment of EU workers for political reasons. The common currency never had a future without a common fiscal policy which is impossible in the absence of Political Union, all of this was and is known. The people of the European Nations were never going to stand for Political Union, the solution was to adopt a single currency and when the inevitable crisis happens (it has happened) the populations get bounced into a Political Union as the solution to the problem. Germany because of its economic success and not least because of its 'historic sins' carries the burden of the bills. Ironically, if the contagion gets worse, Germany will face ever increasing financial burdens which could lead to the German People shaking off its treacherous Government in favour of one that will protect the National Interest. The law of unintended consequences kicks in History turns full circle and a scheme to deprive people of Nationalist Government provides one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Speculation or fantasy, it's all hypothesis. Germany lost the war and went in a different direction to what it would have done had it won. But it never could have won given that it had taken on both the USSR and the USA by 1941. The regime was based on bellicosity and madness and a nation of under 100 million and limited resources couldn't possibilty sustain years of war against larger and better resourced nations. Despite that, Adolf does have his admirers on here. Of course it's hypothesis. Seriously I'm not arguing otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 If the EU wants Germany to bail them out, surely they can't expect an open blank cheque from the Germans, it is only fair that checks and balances are put in place to ensure that a crisis like this can never happen again. I've been saying for ages that close political ties will be the pound of blood that the EU must pay, if they want bailing out. You wouldn't get a crisis like this. You'd probably get an altogether more serious one. Many times in history where different nations have been pushed together into statehood it has ended in an unholy mess: Yugoslavia USSR Czechoslovakia Ethiopia/Eritrea Sudan etc... The lessons are there. And this would be the biggest attempt ever to do this, with the most diverse range of nations too. And nations with a history of emnity. It'll end in tears. This won't save the EU. It just makes more crises inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 The EU was set up to prevent Nationalism in general and Hitlerian National Socialism in particular. It has nothing to do with a 'Common Market' the GATT agreements ensure access to Europe's markets. The EU allows 'dumping' by non-EU countries to the detriment of EU workers for political reasons. The common currency never had a future without a common fiscal policy which is impossible in the absence of Political Union, all of this was and is known. The people of the European Nations were never going to stand for Political Union, the solution was to adopt a single currency and when the inevitable crisis happens (it has happened) the populations get bounced into a Political Union as the solution to the problem. Germany because of its economic success and not least because of its 'historic sins' carries the burden of the bills. Ironically, if the contagion gets worse, Germany will face ever increasing financial burdens which could lead to the German People shaking off its treacherous Government in favour of one that will protect the National Interest. The law of unintended consequences kicks in History turns full circle and a scheme to deprive people of Nationalist Government provides one. Germany has enjoyed economic success because of the Euro. It has 16 other client states for its exports, the cost of which is driven down by Germany enjoying use of a currency that is valued way below what a sovereign German currency would be. It also enjoys huge export benefits outside of the Eurozone because of the low valued currency it gets to use. Germany has sucked the economic life out of the periphary of Europe and damaged other countries at the core. And now those countries have no choice (seemingly) but to go cap in hand to the country that has damaged them to begin with. So, Germany gets its superstate. How does it keep the others in line if economic, fiscal, political measures don't work? What if Russia becomes more bullish if it feels threatened by the superstate? I think Germany might decide it needs a bigger army. And it has all the manufacturing capacity and technology to build one. IMO this is a very dangerous moment for Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 You wouldn't get a crisis like this. You'd probably get an altogether more serious one. Many times in history where different nations have been pushed together into statehood it has ended in an unholy mess: Yugoslavia USSR Czechoslovakia Ethiopia/Eritrea Sudan etc... The lessons are there. And this would be the biggest attempt ever to do this, with the most diverse range of nations too. And nations with a history of emnity. It'll end in tears. This won't save the EU. It just makes more crises inevitable. Many times it didn't end in an unholy mess: USA Italy Germany Russia UK To be honest though I think that this issue is neither here or there as we're not talking of complete political integration; just further financial integration. I will agree that there will be more crisis in the future, but then again this is part of world that we live in. Historically, even the most seemingly stable of societies were often surprised by unforeseen crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Many times it didn't end in an unholy mess: USA Italy Germany Russia UK To be honest though I think that this issue is neither here or there as we're not talking of complete political integration; just further financial integration. I will agree that there will be more crisis in the future, but then again this is part of world that we live in. Historically, even the most seemingly stable of societies were often surprised by unforeseen crisis. Poor examples Italy & Germany are fairly homogenous. That said you need to look at the Northern League in Italy. Russia, hmmmmm, Chechenya. UK, on the cusp of breaking up and had 40 years of trouble in Northern Ireland. USA was a whole new country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.