Looks like circumcision could be banned.

[Cyclone]

The Torah [Five Books of Moses], designed by the same Designer as everything else in the Universe!

 

Of course

 

And where is it that you believe that these are legally enforceable?

[Jag82]

No, and no-one has.

So what's your own religion, pray?

 

I don't pray.

[Cyclone]

Can I summarise your argument for you (correct me if I get it wrong).

 

God told you to do it, in fact he told you that you have to do it.

And that's why mutilating children isn't wrong and can't be banned.

 

Someone should present you with the counter argument that a sky pixie told them that it was wrong and everyone should be stopped from doing it, but then you'd probably say they were being intolerant of you by not humouring your beliefs.

[RootsBooster]

Yes- baby girls.

You lead either a very sheltered or very ignorant life if you think girls are the only Jews uncircumcised.

Ah: they appointed you as their spokesman, then?

Well, they sure as hell didn't appoint Abraham!

Yes, we have, The reason is that this requirement is a Mitzva.

Which you are still yet to explain how one man can make a promise which must be fulfilled by all future unwilling generations. No matter how many times you say it, it explains and validates nothing.

 

Belief is irrelevant. The law applies whether the parents like it or not.

And freedom of choice applies- the freedom to act lawfully or unlawfully, the choice of good or bad.

Whereas 'human rights' is a mere human construct, and therefore easily trumped by the Legislator who created their constructors.

Yes, Human Rights are a human construct, like the Torah. The big difference being that Human Rights are there to PROTECT people, not to force them to have body parts removed. You keep talking about "law" but it is only the law of the story book. The law of the land trumps that.

Edited June 28, 2012 by RootsBooster
typo correction

[quisquose]

A solicitor arguing supernatural jurisdiction (Covenants with deities, that's got to be an ex-parte action if one ever existed) over supranational jurisdiction (although abhorrent at least possible).

 

You can't make this stuff up

 

I'm glad somebody did though, because it sure is entertaining weirdness.

 

[RootsBooster]

Which is man-made and, in any event, antithetical to even the UK's own legal system.

 

The Torah is man-made.

[aliceBB]

The Torah is man-made.

 

Good luck, he is deaf to reason.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Circumcision of male children is no longer 'routine' in the US (in fact, some doctors do try to dissuade parents from having it done.)

 

When my son was born (in the UK, but in a US hospital) he was not circumcised. (At that time, circumcision was 'routine practice' in American hospitals.

 

I can see an argument for circumcision - particularly if you live in a desert area where water is not readily available and hygiene - particularly cleansing that part of the penis covered by the foreskin - is often lacking.

 

About 4½ years after he was born, we were back in the UK. We (my wife, my son and I) were travelling in a car to see some friends. My son had been somewhat óut of sorts' with a low-grade elevated body temperature before we left, so he'd been dosed with Calpol. He became even more crotchety and before we set off on the journey home, I decided to take him into the ER (at an American hospital, as it happened.)

 

He had a temperature of 105'F, the doctors did some blood tests and found that he had an e-coli infection in his kidneys. They determined that the infection was caused by a minor infection under (apparently a somewhat tight) foreskin, which had refluxed through the urethra into his bladder and then - through a somewhat weak valve [apparently not uncommon in young males] had found its way into his kidneys.

 

I was told that had we continued on our journey, he would've been dead by the time we got home.

 

He was admitted to hospital, the infection was treated and he was circumcised a few hours later. In that particular case, circumcision was clinically necessary.

 

Back when the Jews and the Arabs were living a fairly rough existence in a warm climate with little access to water (and probably little understanding of the need for personal hygiene) perhaps circumcision was necessary. Whoever thought it up got it right. He (and those who followed the laws he made) may well have saved many lives.

 

My son was lucky. I still (if he was born tomorrow) wouldn't have him circumcised - and - as I said earlier, circumcision is no longer practiced routinely in the US.

 

If you look at the Jewish and arabic dietary rules, most of them make good sense. Neither Jews nor Arabs will eat pork. Neither will eat crustaceans.

 

I don't suppose that the Jews encountered too amny prawns in the Sinai desert, but they still had the rule.

 

If you leave prawns in a warm place for a day or so (and neither the Jews nor the Arabs had fridges back then ... or if they did, the electricity supply was unreliable ) then during the early process of decay, the prawns wil produce toxins, including neurotoxins. - The other toxins will make life extremely unpleasant for you, but the neurotoxins will make it rather short.

 

When pork decays, it too develops toxins. Humans digest pork very rapidly, so the dose of toxins they are likely to get from contaminated pork is very high.

 

Some of the other rules are practised (to a greater or lesser extent) by gentiles. Many Jews won't store meat and dairy products in the same fridge.

 

Most gentiles have been told (at some time) that they shouldn't store raw meats above cooked meats or dairy products.)

 

I still don't understand why Jews are not permitted to wear poly-cotton shirts, though. (Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11)

[RootsBooster]

Circumcision of male children is no longer 'routine' in the US (in fact, some doctors do try to dissuade parents from having it done.)

 

When my son was born (in the UK, but in a US hospital) he was not circumcised. (At that time, circumcision was 'routine practice' in American hospitals.

 

I can see an argument for circumcision - particularly if you live in a desert area where water is not readily available and hygiene - particularly cleansing that part of the penis covered by the foreskin - is often lacking.

 

About 4½ years after he was born, we were back in the UK. We (my wife, my son and I) were travelling in a car to see some friends. My son had been somewhat óut of sorts' with a low-grade elevated body temperature before we left, so he'd been dosed with Calpol. He became even more crotchety and before we set off on the journey home, I decided to take him into the ER (at an American hospital, as it happened.)

 

He had a temperature of 105'F, the doctors did some blood tests and found that he had an e-coli infection in his kidneys. They determined that the infection was caused by a minor infection under (apparently a somewhat tight) foreskin, which had refluxed through the urethra into his bladder and then - through a somewhat weak valve [apparently not uncommon in young males] had found its way into his kidneys.

 

I was told that had we continued on our journey, he would've been dead by the time we got home.

 

He was admitted to hospital, the infection was treated and he was circumcised a few hours later. In that particular case, circumcision was clinically necessary.

 

Back when the Jews and the Arabs were living a fairly rough existence in a warm climate with little access to water (and probably little understanding of the need for personal hygiene) perhaps circumcision was necessary. Whoever thought it up got it right. He (and those who followed the laws he made) may well have saved many lives.

 

My son was lucky. I still (if he was born tomorrow) wouldn't have him circumcised - and - as I said earlier, circumcision is no longer practiced routinely in the US.

 

If you look at the Jewish and arabic dietary rules, most of them make good sense. Neither Jews nor Arabs will eat pork. Neither will eat crustaceans.

 

I don't suppose that the Jews encountered too amny prawns in the Sinai desert, but they still had the rule.

 

If you leave prawns in a warm place for a day or so (and neither the Jews nor the Arabs had fridges back then ... or if they did, the electricity supply was unreliable ) then during the early process of decay, the prawns wil produce toxins, including neurotoxins. - The other toxins will make life extremely unpleasant for you, but the neurotoxins will make it rather short.

 

When pork decays, it too develops toxins. Humans digest pork very rapidly, so the dose of toxins they are likely to get from contaminated pork is very high.

 

Some of the other rules are practised (to a greater or lesser extent) by gentiles. Many Jews won't store meat and dairy products in the same fridge.

 

Most gentiles have been told (at some time) that they shouldn't store raw meats above cooked meats or dairy products.)

 

I still don't understand why Jews are not permitted to wear poly-cotton shirts, though. (Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11)

 

I'm glad your son is okay, I haven't seen anyone speak against circumcision for medical reasons. There is no mentioning of health reasons in the Torah.

 

Can ANYONE explain and justify Abraham's promise ?

[aliceBB]

 

Can ANYONE explain and justify Abraham's promise ?

 

Probably not. Mr Shaw will no doubt retort that we are not required to justify laws, just obey them. That always seems a bit dodgy to me.