I1L2T3 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The idea that there is £127bn (current deficit) of uncollected tax every year is just fanciful Leftist nonsense. At most it is about £35bn a year which is still a lot but it won't nearly plug the supermassive black hole Labour left. As I have pointed out on this thread corporate tax avoidance was actively encouraged by Labour under Gordon Brown. The OP was questioning whether paying tax is a moral issue. No it isn't. Morality has nothing to do with it for tax payers. It is part of the social contract between government and citizen. Tax payers only have to pay in accordance with the rules set down by government. If those rules permit avoidance that's the fault of the government. The social contract is pay tax and get public services in return. I would argue that government are in breach of that contract. If there is a moral obligation on any party it is on those spending tax payer's cash to use it wisely. Clearly they are not doing that. Even if it was 35bn it would make a significant dent on the deficit wouldn't it. It should still be collected. Just carry on contradicting yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Just distill the argument down to a very basic level. 100 billion deficit. 100 billion tax avoided. In that scenario are you arguing that it is right to withdraw public services so people and corporations can continue to avoid tax? As for the tax system. It's clearly very broken and needs to be made more efficient. In fact you could argue it's the single most important target for a rationalisation and efficiency drive right now. It needs to do better at bringing in the money. Very basically it doesn't exist because someone didn't pay tax, it exists because the governments and the public sector are incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 It could end up anywhere in the world when you give it to the UK government, contracts awarded to foreign companies, aid to feed the overpopulated planet. Not a very strong argument is it. Only a small % of tax take is spent overseas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 But then I don’t think the deficit exists because people avoid tax, I think people avoid paying tax because they see it being wasted. The 2nd part of that sentence doesn't actually explain the first part, although it appears that it should. The deficit exists because spending is greater than income, fix either part of that and the deficit doesn't exist. People avoid paying tax because it's the sensible thing to do, but with schemes like this avoidance is flirting heavily with evasion. The deficit exists because successive governments, the public sector, and a very generous benefits system wastes much of the money they receive and gets very poor value for money on what it spend. Or more simply, spending>income. The public sector likes to strike when they don’t get their own way so I see nothing wrong with legally avoiding paying tax to make the government and public sector spend money more efficiently and get much better value for money. If it's legal then clearly there is nothing wrong with it. We all legally avoid paying tax by paying into our pensions, or saving in an ISA. Rewarding incompetence by paying more tax than necessary is not very sensible. Paying more than is necessary is not very sensible full stop. But the majority of us do not go so far to avoid paying it that it appears to be on the very edge of legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I don't think he was hiding it; it was just given to him in a different form, which then gave him the ability to spend more on himself and his family instead of it being wasted by government and given to the work shy, and he still spent it so it was still good for the economy. He wasn't hiding it, but the trust and never to be repaid loan is not a loop hole or a means of tax avoidance that is legal, it's obviously not an intended affect of any legislation and is skirting very close to evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Graham Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Even if it was 35bn it would make a significant dent on the deficit wouldn't it. It should still be collected. So why didn't Gordon Brown collect it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15001965 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Does the failing of a previous government somehow mean that it isn't important now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Another thread whereby the elite win again by the divide & rule argument that too many educated people get embroiled in. This is no longer a left or right argument. Its what is morally right or wrong. Jim - yes Gordon & Tony positively encouraged loopholes and our present government are trying (badly) to close them down, but lets not forget, these schemes have fundamentally helped the elite, big business and financiers. Also your current deficit of £127bn is predominately made up of bail outs and subsidies, as well as lost tax revenue. The problem is if we continue this circle of allowing the rich to not pay tax, we end up like Greece or Italy or even Russia, where a huge proportion of the country is on the "take" as they see monies mismanaged and the elite not paying their fair share. Before you know it, no one wants to pay tax and schools, hospitals and basic infrastructure cant even be afforded. What does this achieve? We really need to agree some consensus rather than this constant, Labour did this, Tories did that etc. Your failing yourselves to play these partisan lines. We all know the facts, or at least most of us, and the bulk of our politicians & parties wont get us out of this mire whilst we keep kicking one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Very basically it doesn't exist because someone didn't pay tax, it exists because the governments and the public sector are incompetent. If the collection system was made more efficient then the deficit could be reduced significantly. It's an argument for doing this now, just when we need it. Or for you is it better that millions suffer so a few can carrying on abusing and stretching the system to the limits? I do agree that we need to make efficiencies in the public sector too. Overall what we pay is not god value for what we get. I've never argued anything different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 So why didn't Gordon Brown collect it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15001965 I really wish he had. I'm not being partisan about this. This tax thing is a symptom of a society where the elites are seriously corrupted, on all sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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