Cameron's attack on the poor!

[andygardener]

You're right, but what I object to is the arrogance of some people who say things like 'If I can do it so can everyone else,' without any serious thought to the reality of other people's situation. And when asked to justify their sweeping assertion they go quiet.

 

This also seems to be a failure of right wing thinking, endemic in the current government.

 

I think the point that was being made is that all manner of people from all manner of backgrounds make the sacrifices and put in the hideously long hours and take the chances to be sucessful entreprenuers. Branson left school with no qualifications and was in jail by 19, some people would use that as an excuse to fail, he went out and got very rich instead.

 

That isn't to say everyone can, but most people could had they pushed themselves. Most choose not to, myself included, because getting rich is actually very, very hard work. So for a self made wealth creator to say "i did it why couldn't you" isn't saying that you or I could get rich tommorow, but that had we had the drive and passion to go for it from a young age then we could have.

 

As for p****** them off, does this mean we have to dance to the tune of any rich person, just because they have money? Isn't this exactly what we're doing with the bankers that is so deplored?

 

I think bankers are an unhelpful distraction when we're talking about wealth creators, not gamblers of other peoples money who have been extensively discussed elsewhere.

 

If a person creates dozens of jobs and pays themselves a few million a year there is a limit to how much of that money the state can get it's mitts on before the person satrts looking to relocate, then all their taxes are lost and the jobs are moved elsewhere resulting in more unemployment and less taxes to pay to keep the poor.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Well aren't you the lucky ones...?

 

How many people do you think are in your position to just move and set up abroad when the whim takes them?

 

It's typical that when the going gets tough, the rich get going...

 

There are a number of people who have immigrated to the UK (and to other countries) who faced many difficulties in doing so.

 

Lack of money and aged relatives didn't deter them. It didn't make life any easier either, but they moved anyway.

 

There are many people who feel that they have very good reasons for not leaving the UK (and that's up to them.)

 

Who are those people who have left the UK 'in search of a better life'?

 

Why did they go?

 

Did they go because:

 

They could claim more in benefits elsewhere?

Somebody would bring them the sort of job (well-paid and hopefully involving little effort) which they would be prepared to do?

or

They could get subsidised accommodation for less than other people had to pay?

 

I'm certainly not suggesting that those who didn't leave stayed for those reasons, but I suspect that most (if not all) of the people who left were well-motivated ambitious and prepared to work hard.

 

I've been an 'immigrant' in one country or another for all of my adult life, so (although I do try to adapt to the local cultures) It's perhaps unsurprising that I've met a very large number of expatriates (from various countries.)

 

Very few of those expats are 'lotus eaters'. - I do know some people who have retired in other countries, but the majority moved to those countries to work. I suppose some people moved because they felt that they would pay lower taxes in other countries. - That's far from being a common reason, however.

 

When I first went to the US, I found (as the equivalent of a PAYE taxpayer) that my income tax (comprising Federal tax, State Tax, County tax and 'City' tax [no Cathedral, no Bishop, about 10,000 people - hardly a city ) was higher than it had been in the UK.

 

Some people I've spoken to (particularly those who were successful self-employed people or who ran businesses which employed others) said that they left because they were fed up with government intervention and meddling.

 

I've met others who (although they had well-paid jobs and didn't cite tax levels) said that they were fed up with listening to all the moaning of people who weren't prepared to get off their arses and go to work, but who expected 'somebody' to bring them a job and provide them with cheap accommodation. (A sentiment I've seen expressed on this forum more than once or twice.)

 

You said: "It's typical that when the going gets tough, the rich get going."

 

If you make any group of people feel that they are not wanted, are being treated unfairly and are being 'taken advantage of' then they - or many of them - will leave.

 

Between 2000 and 2010

 

1,906,000 Britons

and

2,029,000 non-Britons emigrated form the UK.

 

Nearly 4 million people felt they were unwanted in the UK or would be better off elsewhere.

 

Were they all rich people?

[Obelix]

You're right, but what I object to is the arrogance of some people who say things like 'If I can do it so can everyone else,' without any serious thought to the reality of other people's situation. And when asked to justify their sweeping assertion they go quiet.

 

This also seems to be a failure of right wing thinking, endemic in the current government.

 

As for p****** them off, does this mean we have to dance to the tune of any rich person, just because they have money? Isn't this exactly what we're doing with the bankers that is so deplored?

 

While I enjoy debating sometimes, it doesn't mean I stick myself to the keyboard - I had to drive to my lodgings, stop off and buy some groceries on the way, that sort of thing... I'm sorry I couldn't reply immediately.

 

You have no idea of my situation either - so I don't see how you can postulate that I would have it easier than you. However what I was saying is that if I can start from where I did I really don;t see why the vast majority of other people cannot do what I did - they had the same or better opportunities than me after all, and I seemed to do reasonably well if I may be permitted a little blowing of my own trumpet.

 

No-one is suggesting that you could move countries *now* but I decided on moving four years ago. It's a long term sort of thing not a spur of the moment, unless you really do have an obscene amount of cash sitting about.

 

As for dancing to the tune of a rich person - please. Tell me where I've asked that? All I've pointed out is that if you don't treat everyone with reasonable fairness then you will find those that feel they are treated unfairly will leave. I'm not leaving because people are not dancing to my tune - far from it. I'm leaving because I expect in three or four years there will be a tax rate of 50% again or higher to act as a sop to the masses. It won't generate much money at all for them, it won't even really affect me that badly. What it will do is damage the country for a long time because those whom it will affect will leave, and will leave quickly and that will have a deleterious effect on the country, and *that* will have a very profound effect on me.

 

Ergo - I left. It is perhaps a mote in peoples eyes, but a cloud of midges can have a quite profound effect en masse, as I think the country will find out in the years ahead.

[Anna B]

While I enjoy debating sometimes, it doesn't mean I stick myself to the keyboard - I had to drive to my lodgings, stop off and buy some groceries on the way, that sort of thing... I'm sorry I couldn't reply immediately.

 

You have no idea of my situation either - so I don't see how you can postulate that I would have it easier than you. However what I was saying is that if I can start from where I did I really don;t see why the vast majority of other people cannot do what I did - they had the same or better opportunities than me after all, and I seemed to do reasonably well if I may be permitted a little blowing of my own trumpet.

 

No-one is suggesting that you could move countries *now* but I decided on moving four years ago. It's a long term sort of thing not a spur of the moment, unless you really do have an obscene amount of cash sitting about.

 

As for dancing to the tune of a rich person - please. Tell me where I've asked that? All I've pointed out is that if you don't treat everyone with reasonable fairness then you will find those that feel they are treated unfairly will leave. I'm not leaving because people are not dancing to my tune - far from it. I'm leaving because I expect in three or four years there will be a tax rate of 50% again or higher to act as a sop to the masses. It won't generate much money at all for them, it won't even really affect me that badly. What it will do is damage the country for a long time because those whom it will affect will leave, and will leave quickly and that will have a deleterious effect on the country, and *that* will have a very profound effect on me.

 

Ergo - I left. It is perhaps a mote in peoples eyes, but a cloud of midges can have a quite profound effect en masse, as I think the country will find out in the years ahead.

 

Thankyou for a full and courteous reply. This is not meant as a personal attack, I in no way begrudge you your success which I'm sure you've earned, neither am I moaning about my own situation which happens to be comfortable.

 

I do think, however, that there are so many variable factors in a person's route to success, that it is rarely helpful to think that if only people 'work hard' they too can achieve the same level of satisfaction you seem to enjoy. I can assure you a great many people work very hard indeed and still do not enjoy much in the way of success.

 

If 'the vast majority of people can do what you did,' I postulate the question -why didn't they? I wonder what you think held them back?

 

I'll give you a couple of real examples: Fashion designer Stella McCartney, is quoted as saying 'apart from Dad helping me get a foot in the door, I've acheived everything for myself with no help from anyone.' She obviously doesn't realise that for 'normal' people that 'foot in the door' is the hardest part, and the part denied to most people. Would she really have got where she is without it?

 

Acting is the same. It needs a lucky break, no matter how good, or how hard you work at it. And often, the right contacts.

 

Education is the same. Some people go to sink schools, some to good schools, some meet up with inspirational teachers, some do not. And parents; some care, some do not. Health, brain power, determination, ruthlessness, being in the right place at the right time, money, all make a difference: like I said many, many variable factors. A few may overcome everything, most do not.

 

I also question in what way this government, or the last, failed to support wealthy people to the point that they felt 'unwelcome' or the need to leave? A lot of wealthy people leave the country for tax purposes, which I find reprehensible. They've made their money here, but are unwilling to pay tax here, even though it is fair and necessary for the wellbeing of their country. I don't agree with much that the government spends my taxes on, but pay it I do.

Actually I wouldn't mind the top rate of tax being 30% for everyone, as long as EVERYONE paid ALL of it, and didn't go in for tax avoidance by whatever means.

 

We now know from the example of people like Bob Diamond that the rich can never be rich enough, and always want more. At the expense of other people.

[Defunct]

Thankyou for a full and courteous reply.This is not meant as a personal attack, neither am I moaning about my own situation which happens to be comfortable.

 

I do think, however, that there are so many variable factors in a person's route to success, that it is rarely helpful to think that if only people 'work hard' they too can achieve the same level of satisfaction you seem to enjoy. I can assure you a great many people work very hard indeed and still do not enjoy much in the way of success.

 

If 'the vast majority of people can do what you did,' I postulate the question -why didn't they? I wonder what you think held them back? I'll give you a couple of real examples: Fashion designer Stella McCartney, is quoted as saying 'apart from Dad helping me get a foot in the door, I've acheived everything for myself with no help from anyone.' She obviously doesn't realise that for 'normal' people that 'foot in the door' is the hardest part, and the part denied to most people. Would she really have got where she is without it?

 

Acting is the same. It needs a lucky break, no matter how good, or how hard you work at it. And the right contacts.

 

 

I find your honesty really annoying and totally unacceptable! STOP IT at once!:rant:

 

 

[chem1st]

We have structural unemployment by system design...

[I1L2T3]

My daughter and a couple of her friends wanted to go into nursing when they left school but all the courses were full, so at a time when we had an apparent shortage of midwifes and nurses and the NHS was employing trained nurses and midwifes from abroad, we had young people here wanting to train but couldn’t.

 

That must have been very frustrating for your daughter.

 

I guess hospital trusts have a lot of latitude now about whom they employ. If it works out cheaper to get a batch of Filipinos or Nigerians then for cost reasons the trust may go down that route. It might be that British nurses are too expensive and if that is so then it's sad because so many of them don't really get paid that well to start with.

 

My sister-in-law is a nurse in an old folks' home. It's privately owned and about three years ago the owners experimented with shipping in a load of nurses from West Africa. It was a disaster. The residents and nurses couldn't communicate, the levels of care fell, the families of the residents became unhappy and the home started losing residents to other homes. They're back to a almost a full complement of British nurses now although a few of the African lasses were kept on because they were good.

[Defunct]

That must have been very frustrating for your daughter.

 

I guess hospital trusts have a lot of latitude now about whom they employ. If it works out cheaper to get a batch of Filipinos or Nigerians then for cost reasons the trust may go down that route. It might be that British nurses are too expensive and if that is so then it's sad because so many of them don't really get paid that well to start with.

 

My sister-in-law is a nurse in an old folks' home. It's privately owned and about three years ago the owners experimented with shipping in a load of nurses from West Africa. It was a disaster. The residents and nurses couldn't communicate, the levels of care fell, the families of the residents became unhappy and the home started losing residents to other homes. They're back to a almost a full complement of British nurses now although a few of the African lasses were kept on because they were good.

 

 

 

The owners were obviously people who know "The cost of everything, but the value of nothing"......Eric Sykes:)

[Mecky]

As Obelix has already clearly explained, skilled people who leave can still do their jobs and service business in the UK, they just do it from abroad and pay their taxes there.

 

There will be no vacuum, just less tax payers.

 

 

 

Hence the phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face."

 

But perhaps the government should stop them for doing business in the UK? Don't let them have their cake and eat it. I would also send out their family members for good to keep them company.

[Titanic99]

First it was the disabled, now its the under 25's, next it is the pensioners, soon it will be you.

He wants to eventually replace benefits with food stamps. Under 25's to move back in with their parents, disabled people to find jobs that just aren't there. Change is needed, but in a sensible way, this man will cause more riots. He should be trying to create jobs, he needs to get rid of the workfare scheme. stand up to this idiot before its to late, and we end up like the US.

show people that you care more about society's most vulnerable, rather than the price of a cornish pasty.

 

I have seen the nastiness of this government. 8 members of MHAG who have serious mental health conditions, have been sent for an atos medical, and only one has been declared unfit for work. These people have no real training to deal wiith mental health issues. please help by signing the following petition. They are going too far, so please help.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/28740

 

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, I’m not that sure that those of us in work have fared any better.

 

To date under this wretched lot, I’m working an additional three years before I get my pension, I haven’t had a pay rise, I’ve seen a lot of former colleagues made redundant, I’m about to lose some employment rights on unfair dismissals, my property and investments have dropped in value, my pensions are worth a lot less and then when I eventually lose my job they’ll give me less money.

 

Why did people vote for this?