Anna B Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Is it possible that the issue is being (to some extent) clouded by misinterpretation? I had a(n original) framed page from a Lincolnshire Newspaper published in the 18th Century which detailed the fate of a robber apprehended outside the City Walls and hanged (having been tried and convicted) in the Castle. According to the article the felon was "One of that common class of person known as Bankers or Navigators." (I took great delight in showing that article to my Nav and my Bank Manager.) When people moan about 'Bankers' what do you mean? Do you mean the guy who runs your local branch? Do you mean the Teller in your local branch? Were the banks which screwed us over (initially) the High Street Banks or were they (certain individuals working for) Merchant Banks? In the late 1980's, I was a stockbroker. When I was a 'youf', Stockbrokers were respected wealthy individuals who lived in places like Virginia Water and who had attractive daughters who succumbed to my wiles ... family channel, no names and no pack drill! When I was a stockbroker - a 'registered representative' a 'member [albeit a little one] of the New York Stock Exchange - stockbrokers were crooks who hadn't been jailed - yet. I worked for a merchant bank (though they claimed that I was a self-employed subbie, so if I went to jail, they could deny liability. I got out. - didn't want to go to jail, could see what was going to happen. Happen it did - and a number of (not very guilty) people carried the can for some very senior people. I don't suppose a lot has changed. Stockbrokers (cold-calling telephone salesmen) make a living - or don't - from what they can sell. There are rules ... and they are usually ignored. 'Derivatives' - 'manufactured' 'equities'. Many millions of dollars worth of worthless debt were re-packaged by people running unscrupulous minions (who were actually only trying to make a living) and sold on to unsuspecting buyers. 'Caveat emptor' is written in Latin, because the idea has been around for a long time. - Unfortunately, greed often supersedes common sense and a number of very senior people (who certainly should've known better) bought the bad debt. Nothing new. - Think back a few years to when local councils were spending the taxpayers' money buying 'dodgy bonds' from places like Iceland (and I'm not slagging off the frozen food company.) Did those councillors go to jail? - Did they hell! - Why not? In the 80's we had 'junk bonds' - debt backed by the 'full faith and credit of bugger all.' - One or two people caught a cold, but a lot of people got rich and many got away with it. Then came ' National junk bonds' - Councils (who are not supposed to be speculators) were buying trash debt. They git away with it. Nobody went to jail. If government (albeit local government) can get away with gross misfeasance, why should the minions of the merchant banks have a 'conscience attack' ? 'Caveat Emptor' doesn't apply solely to private transactions. Why didn't the Banks and other agencies which bought the packaged 'junk debt' check what the hell they were buying before they handed over the money? By all means hang the guilty - but please identify and convict them first. (I'm not a banker -as I said earlier, I got out 20-odd years ago. I didn't make much money as a 'Merchant Banker' - but I did learn to trust nobody and to accept nothing at face value. That took me weeks, rather than months. Why did the professional bankers -many of whom had been in the game (or should that be 'on the game' ) for many years not learn that earlier? If one man in a town commits a crime, who is responsible? - I suggest the answer is: "That man" If a thousand men in a town commit the same crime, who is responsible? - Again, the criminals are personally responsible, but if that particular crime is so prevalent, shouldn't the mayor (or whoever runs the town) bear more than a little responsibility? If that mayor merely followed the laws made by the 'town elders', are those elders not responsible? Who makes the laws in the UK? Is [The Queen in] Parliament not the sovereign lawmaker? If Parliament is responsible for making the laws, then is Parliament not responsible for ensuring that the laws are enforced? Let 'the banksters' wait in line for a place in jail behind the politicians who carry the responsibility. What an interesting, well considered post. You make some very good points. Thankyou. Of course I don't consider Brenda who works behind the till as a guilty party, although she has probably sold some dodgy stuff in her time to people who didn't want it. (...only obeying orders...) And you're right that when a practice is so prevelant as to be commonplace, it is hard to stand up against the tide, so you either go along with it or get out as you did. But that doesn't make it right. A relative of mine worked for Goldman Sachs in America and also got out when he realised how bent the whole system was, thus losing the chance to earn huge amounts of cash - but, as he put it, you pay with your soul, the money corrupts people down to their very core. But again they are basically following orders, but unlike Brenda are doing very well out of it at other people's expense. However they should know that there is a line they must not cross, and if that isn't made clear to them it is the people at the top who must take responsibility. Therefore it is has to be the people at the very top, the Bob Diamonds, who set the ethos of the company and make unrealistic demands of their people with targets etc. who take ultimate responsibility. These are the new masters of the universe, the people who control us and governments. Their wealth protects them and puts them above the law, (they think.) They hold governments in thrall, and wield power without responsibility. They have dragged politicians down to their level and set the tone for society which is why I think it has trickled down to even the lowest levels where ordinary people will now do anything they think they can get away with. Unfortunately, without the wealth to protect them, the ones at the bottom are the ones who get sent to prison, and the unfairness of 'one law for them...' is causing ferment. We used to be honest and law abiding people. People used to be respected for their integrity. Now they often suffer as a result, and are seen as mugs. Did you ever think how and why it changed? I think this goes right to the heart of where we are now. Money is King, and we are all suffering the consequences of that. Until this corruption is exposed and it is proved that no man is above the law, things will only go from bad to worse. For all our sakes, we have to get back to real values, both monetarially and morally. The two are intrinsically connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 For all our sakes, we have to get back to real values, both monetarially and morally. The two are intrinsically connected. The voice of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickiethecat Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 IHave you any idea how serious manipulating Libor is? Not serious at all. If interest rates are high we get a better return on our savings. If interest rates are low we are able to borrow money cheaper and the cost of our mortgages goes down. So whichever way the rates are fixed we benefit. Have you become so obsessed with hating the banks that you blame them even when they take decisions that make you better off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 It's extremely serious, it completely distorts the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 It's extremely serious, it completely distorts the market. Not to mention highly illegal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Nice little video from the HBSC whistleblower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybite Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Not to mention highly illegal... hiya , i see no one has said anything about taking money from them due to ill gotten gains as they do with common crminals, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 hiya , i see no one has said anything about taking money from them due to ill gotten gains as they do with common crminals, I agree, although how is another matter. They seem to think not taking a massive bonus, which they don't deserve, is enough. It isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 hiya , i see no one has said anything about taking money from them due to ill gotten gains as they do with common crminals, On radio 4 yesterday the estimates of the potential fines that could be levied were from 4 to 20 billion dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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