raymondo1952 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Where there is money there is a fiddle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 I don't know what you are smoking but it must be good stuff I've never said that in this thread at all. In fact I have taken the absolute opposite point. The point is that since full state control is such a bad idea - witness the grain shortages the USSR etc had as I noted before - then you have either the choice of state control or a free market. Yes the free market may not in your eyes be perfect. The alternate is far worse. But it isn't a simple binary choice of free market or full state control. You are trying to imply that by introducing any kind of regulation or management to a market it comes under full state control. That is nonsense. We don't have free markets now anyway. It's an illusion. Every market is subject to some form of regulation, however minimal. The question is to what extent we should regulate or manage the markets. I would argue for more regulation of certain markets to prevent bankers making excessive profits out of the necessities of life - fuel, food, water - in ways they were not able to until financialisation took hold in the last 20-30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Where there is money there is a fiddle Never have truer words been spoken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anywebsite Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Ah, I see what you mean. (However 90% domestic tax is still obscene). So if we were to tax the cartels (in relation to oil), wouldn't that too be seen as 'rigging' the price (pardon the pun)? It's a cartel (in relation to oil), it's name is OPEC, if there are any smaller ones they're irrelevant. Cartels exist to rig prices, that is their function. Breaking cartels breaks the price rigging. Problem is would it be practical to enforce a import duty on oil from certain countries, surely they'd find a way round it by shipping through a third country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anywebsite Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 But it isn't a simple binary choice of free market or full state control. You are trying to imply that by introducing any kind of regulation or management to a market it comes under full state control. That is nonsense. We don't have free markets now anyway. It's an illusion. Every market is subject to some form of regulation, however minimal. The question is to what extent we should regulate or manage the markets. I would argue for more regulation of certain markets to prevent bankers making excessive profits out of the necessities of life - fuel, food, water - in ways they were not able to until financialisation took hold in the last 20-30 years. You're talking utter rubbish about a past that never existed. Bankers & other traders have made profits out of commodities like food for thousands of years. Excessive profits are made due to corruption, not financialisation (whatever you think that means), most of this corruption is already illegal, just the laws aren't enforced on the old boys club. Since you couldn't answer before, do you have any particular pre-1980s regulations you'd like to see return? Then we can argue based on facts rather than vague fantasies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 You're talking utter rubbish about a past that never existed. Bankers & other traders have made profits out of commodities like food for thousands of years. Excessive profits are made due to corruption, not financialisation (whatever you think that means), most of this corruption is already illegal, just the laws aren't enforced on the old boys club. Since you couldn't answer before, do you have any particular pre-1980s regulations you'd like to see return? Then we can argue based on facts rather than vague fantasies. I know traders have made profits for thousands of years. I know we have had markets for thousands of years. I'm not against that. I'm not complaining about that. Markets are good. Get it? What I am highlighting is the financialisation of markets, the hijack of them by the financial sector for speculative means. This has happened in the last few decades. Take some time to do a bit of research before resorting to abuse. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization Read it, come back and we can discuss sensibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I know traders have made profits for thousands of years. I know we have had markets for thousands of years. I'm not against that. I'm not complaining about that. Markets are good. Get it? What I am highlighting is the financialisation of markets, the hijack of them by the financial sector for speculative means. This has happened in the last few decades. Take some time to do a bit of research before resorting to abuse. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization Read it, come back and we can discuss sensibly. If you are using Wackypedia, especially an unsourced article that reads more like some crackpot pet theory than a serious paper you deserve all you get. That article is perforce, utter balls. It doesnt even begin to describe how the markets work. There has been trading in futures contracts in food since the Roman times, and quite probably there was similar trading in Ancient Greece. Market speculation has been about from about five minutes after the point when two guys decided to meet on some dusty bit of land and put up a stall selling excess yams to the passing public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecky Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 If you are using Wackypedia, especially an unsourced article that reads more like some crackpot pet theory than a serious paper you deserve all you get. That article is perforce, utter balls. It doesnt even begin to describe how the markets work. There has been trading in futures contracts in food since the Roman times, and quite probably there was similar trading in Ancient Greece. Market speculation has been about from about five minutes after the point when two guys decided to meet on some dusty bit of land and put up a stall selling excess yams to the passing public. So because you don't like what the article says, it's rubbish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 If you are using Wackypedia, especially an unsourced article that reads more like some crackpot pet theory than a serious paper you deserve all you get. That article is perforce, utter balls. It doesnt even begin to describe how the markets work. There has been trading in futures contracts in food since the Roman times, and quite probably there was similar trading in Ancient Greece. Market speculation has been about from about five minutes after the point when two guys decided to meet on some dusty bit of land and put up a stall selling excess yams to the passing public. Once again, I know that markets have existed for thousands of years. I like them. I think we need them. I like that people make money from them. It's good. But in the past 20-30 years things have changed dramatically because of the rising dominance of the financial sector and deregulation of many markets. The point of the article linked to in the OP is that bankers may have been able to distort the market for their own gain. This may also be the case in other markets too. Markets are no longer as simple as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 So because you don't like what the article says, it's rubbish? Who cares. Anybody who thinks that markets still function normally and are not distorted by the actions of the banks must be living under a rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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