Jeffrey Shaw Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Assume away, old bean. Humans are not 'better' than animals but they have superiority over them. That's why experimenting on animals in order to benefit humanity- or eating them, for that matter- is OK; whereas unjustified cruelty to animals is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I love these debates. We are animals, we are not 'better' or 'higer' or 'superior' to them in any way, we are just animals. What we do have is unique cognitive ability compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. Just like the hydrozoan Jellyfish has unique property in its ability to return to the first stage of life. Or the flea has the unique ability to jump 100 times its own body length. Or any other countless number of species have countless unique abilities. We tend to get unique mixed up with different, you may get a car that is unique but for all intents and purposes it is still a car. We however have elevated our uniqueness into a difference, a 'specialness' that elevates us above our basic function. We are biologically animals, we are behaviourally animals, but we love to tell ourselves we're just that little bit special. Our cognitive ability makes us superior to animals in the same way a flea's ability to jump makes it superior. That is the science of it. If you think we have some kind of in built or moral supremacy that is entirely your position but it is a philosophical one (and quite an arrogant philosophy at that) and nothing more. We test on animals because we can, because generally we put ourselves on a philosophical soap box to justify doing whatever we want to do because our unique cognitive ability has also lead us to a uniquely arrogant opinion of ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Shaw Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 We are animals, we are not 'better' or 'higer' or 'superior' to them in any way, we are just animals. ...according to you (but it's not true, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ...according to you (but it's not true, of course). Not 'according to me', according to science. All science says about our relationship to animals is that we are biologically and behaviourally animals that have a unique cognitive ability. In no way shape or form does it say we are 'superior', 'better' or more important to them. Every single one of our attempts to justify our being somehow superior to animals is based on either philosophy or religion, the latter of which if we take from a purely scientific view point is at best a philosophy (and I'm religious so not having a dig at religion). Yet despite this we use religion and/or philosophy to dictate what we do scientifically. We may have a unique cognitive ability compared to other animals but we sure are more mixed up than they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Shaw Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Why are you obsessed with religion? No-one other than you has mentioned it in this thread. No-one has here posited it as the basis for innate human superiority. Maybe read George Orwell? At the end of 'Animal Farm', he wrote this: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." How prescient he was in foretelling your views! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Why are you obsessed with religion? No-one other than you has mentioned it in this thread. I'm not 'obsessed' with it. It was relevant to what I was saying in regards to the thread. Why is that obsessive? I have posted on two other threads since I have been on here tonight and not mentioned religion because it was not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Shaw Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I'm not 'obsessed' with it. It was relevant to what I was saying in regards to the thread. Why is that obsessive? I have posted on two other threads since I have been on here tonight and not mentioned religion because it was not relevant. And it's relevant here because...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaliRichard Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 And it's relevant here because...? Because our idea of being superior to animals is based on philosophy and/or religion, not science. I did already state this in a previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppet2 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 experimenting on animals in order to benefit humanity- or eating them, for that matter- is OK; whereas unjustified cruelty to animals is not. I object to experimenting by putting shampoo into rabbits eyes. It's obvious what the outcome would be if you get shampoo in your eyes, so answer to problem, wash your hair with your eyes closed, simple. I never agreed with smoking experiments on beagles that took place in the 70's. Totally unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I love these debates. We are animals, we are not 'better' or 'higer' or 'superior' to them in any way, we are just animals. What we do have is unique cognitive ability compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. Just like the hydrozoan Jellyfish has unique property in its ability to return to the first stage of life. Or the flea has the unique ability to jump 100 times its own body length. Or any other countless number of species have countless unique abilities. We tend to get unique mixed up with different, you may get a car that is unique but for all intents and purposes it is still a car. We however have elevated our uniqueness into a difference, a 'specialness' that elevates us above our basic function. We are biologically animals, we are behaviourally animals, but we love to tell ourselves we're just that little bit special. Our cognitive ability makes us superior to animals in the same way a flea's ability to jump makes it superior. That is the science of it. If you think we have some kind of in built or moral supremacy that is entirely your position but it is a philosophical one (and quite an arrogant philosophy at that) and nothing more. We test on animals because we can, because generally we put ourselves on a philosophical soap box to justify doing whatever we want to do because our unique cognitive ability has also lead us to a uniquely arrogant opinion of ourselves. Nice post well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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