How unfair is this government to those who want to work.

[MrSmith]

It's not really clear what happened to those 10k graduates.

 

Like I said, I know quite a few who graduate from Sheffield and Leeds and I don't know any that are or have been unable to secure their F1 year or subsequent years for that matter.

 

It doesn't follow that they all find a job just because you know some that do, it also doesn’t mean that if everyone that went to university took a degree in medicine or engineering that they would all get a job. I know plenty of young people that find work, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t significantly harder for young people to find work as a result of government immigration policy and competition for jobs from the free movement of EU citizens.

[Rupert_Baehr]

I’m not sure the government wants a solution whilst ever it’s easier to recruit trained staff from abroad.

 

But the problem in this case has nothing to do with the recruitment of trained staff from abroad.

 

Medical schools in the UK produce 'X' graduates each year. Those graduates need to do post-graduate qualification to make their initial qualification (a qualification on which the government - and they themselves - have spent a considerable amount of time and money - of any practical use.

 

Those graduates - who are well-qualified to enter post-graduate training - have to compete with 'Y' foreign graduates for 'Z' postgraduate training courses.

 

It appears (from the article cited previously) that X+Y = Z - 10,000.

 

If the government can't increase the number of post-graduate places, then wouldn't it make more sense to bolt the postgraduate course on to the initial course?

 

The University of Prague has a medical school (which teaches courses in English as well as in Czech.)

 

The people running those medical courses realised that the newly-qualified doctors will need post-graduate qualifications to make the initial qualification of any use, so all students who re accepted for medical training at the University of Prague are automatically allocated places on the Post-grad courses at the start of their training.

[Cyclone]

Obviously, and I didn't claim that it did.

[Cyclone]

But the problem in this case has nothing to do with the recruitment of trained staff from abroad.

 

Medical schools in the UK produce 'X' graduates each year. Those graduates need to do post-graduate qualification to make their initial qualification (a qualification on which the government - and they themselves - have spent a considerable amount of time and money - of any practical use.

 

Those graduates - who are well-qualified to enter post-graduate training - have to compete with 'Y' foreign graduates for 'Z' postgraduate training courses.

 

It appears (from the article cited previously) that X+Y = Z - 10,000.

 

If the government can't increase the number of post-graduate places, then wouldn't it make more sense to bolt the postgraduate course on to the initial course?

 

The University of Prague has a medical school (which teaches courses in English as well as in Czech.)

 

The people running those medical courses realised that the newly-qualified doctors will need post-graduate qualifications to make the initial qualification of any use, so all students who re accepted for medical training at the University of Prague are automatically allocated places on the Post-grad courses at the start of their training.

 

The complication in the UK would be that there are far fewer medical schools than there are trust employers, so each school would need a relationship with multiple trusts to allocate places to it's graduates.

 

It could be done of course, but it's not as easy as saying that all the Sheffield graduates should work in the Sheffield NHS trust, there's no need for that many in this one trust. Doncaster (for example) though being a nearby trust doesn't have a medical school within it's area AFAIK, nor does Nottingham, so the graduates disperse across multiple trusts.

[Rupert_Baehr]

It doesn't follow that they all find a job just because you know some that do, it also doesn’t mean that if everyone that went to university took a degree in medicine or engineering that they would all get a job. I know plenty of young people that find work, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t significantly harder for young people to find work as a result of government immigration policy and competition for jobs from the free movement of EU citizens.

 

The Free movement of persons rights in the EU work both ways. Not only can EU students apply for (and be given) places in the UK, but British students can apply for (and be given) places at Universities within the EU.

 

Given the tuition fees which apply to English and Welsh students in the UK, I'm surprised that more of them don't apply to European universities.

 

As for 'Engineers getting or not getting jobs' (something which is particularly close to my heart;)) it's a sad fact of life that engineers seem to be valued less in the UK than in many other countries.

 

History repeating itself. - The UK seems to be following the same path that it did in the 1950s and early 1960s.

 

People do tend to go where they, their knowledge and skills are valued and appreciated.

[Rupert_Baehr]

The complication in the UK would be that there are far fewer medical schools than there are trust employers, so each school would need a relationship with multiple trusts to allocate places to it's graduates.

 

It could be done of course, but it's not as easy as saying that all the Sheffield graduates should work in the Sheffield NHS trust, there's no need for that many in this one trust. Doncaster (for example) though being a nearby trust doesn't have a medical school within it's area AFAIK, nor does Nottingham, so the graduates disperse across multiple trusts.

 

People might have to move part-way through their training.

 

There's nothing new, or nothing strange in that. I - and many thousands of others - moved a number of times during my initial training. (Started in Hertfordshire, moved to North Yorkshire, then to South Yorkshire, then to somewhere else in South Yorkshire, then to Lincolnshire, then to somewhere else in Lincolnshire. All within a space of 4 years.)

[AWOL]

People might have to move part-way through their training.

 

There's nothing new, or nothing strange in that. I - and many thousands of others - moved a number of times during my initial training. (Started in Hertfordshire, moved to North Yorkshire, then to South Yorkshire, then to somewhere else in South Yorkshire, then to Lincolnshire, then to somewhere else in Lincolnshire. All within a space of 4 years.)

 

 

 

Moving frequently is the best method of shaking the debt collectors off.

[MrSmith]

The Free movement of persons rights in the EU work both ways. Not only can EU students apply for (and be given) places in the UK, but British students can apply for (and be given) places at Universities within the EU.

 

Given the tuition fees which apply to English and Welsh students in the UK, I'm surprised that more of them don't apply to European universities.

 

As for 'Engineers getting or not getting jobs' (something which is particularly close to my heart;)) it's a sad fact of life that engineers seem to be valued less in the UK than in many other countries.

 

History repeating itself. - The UK seems to be following the same path that it did in the 1950s and early 1960s.

 

People do tend to go where they, their knowledge and skills are valued and appreciated.

 

I do understand that, but also understand why most of the movement is likely to be towards the countries which offer the most opportunities; the UK is one of those countries, so it stands to reason that there will be more movement toward us than away from us. There would be little point in thousands of British moving to Poland or Latvia for instance.

[Tom Bailey]

No, actually if you look back you didn’t respond.

Only to argue.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Thousands - No. But individuals? Possibly.

 

Poland and Latvia are but two countries in Europe. There are plenty of others (like the one I live in for half the year) which are very keen to attract well-qualified and /or skilled British engineers [or engineers from any other country, for that matter.]

 

The country I live in for the other half of the year has fairly strict immigration rules, but (for some strange reason ) problems seem to go away when they want people with particular qualifications.