mikem8634 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Every picture i see of outside the ground is hundreds of liverpool fans trying to force their way in. . Try reading the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report to find out why you are wrong. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ Wow - 1000 posts and I'm still having to say the same thing. Sad. Seriously. Sad. Edited October 24, 2012 by mikem8634 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza58 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Try reading the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report to find out why you are wrong. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ Wow - 1000 posts and I'm still having to say the same thing. Sad. Seriously. Sad. You are saying there would have been no deaths outside if the gates had not been opened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 You are saying there would have been no deaths outside if the gates had not been opened. No, I am saying no such thing. If the gates had not been opened then there would probably have been deaths outside which would also have been the fault of failed policing. What I am challenging is the misconception which had been widely discredited that fans tried to force their way in and I have now edited the quote in my last post to reflect that. Thankyou for pointing out that I may have been misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza58 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 No, I am saying no such thing. If the gates had not been opened then there would probably have been deaths outside which would also have been the fault of failed policing. What I am challenging is the misconception which had been widely discredited that fans tried to force their way in and I have now edited the quote in my last post to reflect that. Thankyou for pointing out that I may have been misunderstood. We are now in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tingle165 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I agree that police are to blame for bad policing but i just don't understand how some Liverpool fans are totally blameless. In local pubs at 2:55 and very drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Just thought I would post this again as there seem to be a few more uninformed posters still clinging to the lies. Honestly, how many times do you have to hear it to think it might at least be worth glancing at the evidence? Independent Police Complaints Commission Statement In response to Norman Bettison’s claim that Liverpool fans made policing Hillsborough ‘more difficult than it needed to be’ 60. In relation to the complaints about his statement on 13 September 2012, I have read his statement, and his “updated comment” issued the following day. It does not seem to me that this is a matter requiring investigation – there is no doubt that he made the first statement, which many people regarded as highly offensive, and which flew in the face of the report’s definitive findings, and that he attempted to explain it with his second statement. 61. It was unwise of Sir Norman Bettison to issue a press statement attempting to exonerate himself immediately after publication of the report. It was also insensitive and inappropriate to make reference to fans’ behaviour at all – bearing in mind that publication of the report represented a vindication for the fans that their behaviour was not a factor. http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_121012.aspx Prime Minister’s statement to the House of Commons A narrative about hooliganism on that day was created which led many in the country to accept that it was somehow a grey area. Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster". The Panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying." 11.01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c3gvAoqnM And that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion". 05.35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c3gvAoqnM The Hillsborough Independent Panel Report The disclosed documents show that multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough tragedy and that the fans were not the cause of the disaster. In the days after the disaster the media, particularly the press, published allegations and counter-allegations apportioning blame. This came to a head on 19 April when a number of newspapers, The Sun being the most prominent, reported serious allegations about the behaviour of Liverpool fans before and during the unfolding tragedy. The documents disclosed to the Panel show that the origin of these serious allegations was a local Sheffield press agency informed by several SYP officers, an SYP Police Federation spokeperson and a local MP. They also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP Chief Constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on several police officers' allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a large number of Liverpool fans. This extended beyond the media to Parliament. Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the Panel there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation. 150. Lord Justice Taylor's Interim Report condemned the evidence and testimony of senior police officers and rejected as exaggerated the allegations made against Liverpool fans. He stated categorically that fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster. 153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/page-14/ Even Bettison “Critical police chief admits the fans were not to blame” http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3539383.ece Plus all the apologies from people who would never have even considered it had they not been forced by the evidence - The report prompted immediate apologies from Prime Minister David Cameron, the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police David Crompton, Football Association Chairman David Bernstein, James Murdoch and Kelvin MacKenzie, then-editor of The Sun, for their organisations' respective roles http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19570810 Had the HIP report proved that fans were to blame I'd have been heartbroken but if the evidence was overwhelming I would have been compelled, by reason, to accept it. If statements are to be made that still denigrate the fans then should they not be backed up with evidence? ‘Minds are like parachutes — they only function when open.’ - Thomas Dewar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donuticus Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I'm not even sure that a knighthood is capable of removal- but, even if it were, what's the point? Far better to find those who committed criminal offences and get 'em. Wasn't Lester Piggott stripped of his Knighthood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) I agree that police are to blame for bad policing but i just don't understand how some Liverpool fans are totally blameless. In local pubs at 2:55 and very drunk. You are right in saying that you don't understand. Any evidence of that and how it contributed to the disaster? Are there not some late and drunk fans at pretty much every football match? You will find evidence pointing out why you are wrong in post 1006 but I appreciate you may have been typing when I posted it (for the third time). You will also find counter arguments to your point repeated at various points throughout this thread if you care to read it. Edited October 24, 2012 by mikem8634 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tingle165 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 If they all had tickets why so many people? Did they sell to many tickets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 If they all had tickets why so many people? Did they sell to many tickets? Are you asking me why so many collected together on the concourse outside the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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