Hillsborough document release

[real ale]

If they didnt appear in court then they werent arrested and charged - Now remind me whose responsibility is that again ?

 

If they had been terrorists carrying bombs to a mosque as opposed to cans to a stadiium would they have got within a mile of the venue ?

 

They were actually arrested and charged but in view of the tragedy that then occurred a decision was taken, by whom I don't know, not to proceed and with hindsight a wrong decision. Have you seen the statements of the Liverpool police officers yet ?

[vix2000]

Not being a football supporter or having any real knowledge of the ground in question other than what I have heard on the news I only have my own experiences on the day.

 

I have travelled on penistone road many times when there has been a match. On the fateful day I had a job interview, and to get to it I had to travel along penistone road. My partner was driving and there were very large gangs/crowds whatever you want to call them of extremely drunk blokes swaying onto the road in front of the cars, we had to swerve quite a few times to miss them. I had never seen anything like it, and said to my partner what the hells going on here? and he told me it was the fa cup semi final and these were liverpool supporters. We thought nothing more of it until we tried to get home and all the roads were closed and we had to go all round Sheffield to get home. We then found out what had happened.

 

I had a friend who was nurse and I was supposed to be meeting her but she contacted me and said that she had gone to help at the hospital as they had requested anyone available to go in. She phoned me later and said that the ambulance men had told her that the fans were spitting on them and throwing coins and things at them as they were doing their job.

 

Now I am aware that none of this would change anything regarding the deaths, and my heart goes out to the families as losing a loved one is the worse thing I can imagine. I am behind anything that brings anyone responsible for changing the content of the statements to task, and they should take full responsibility for their actions BUT I do feel that there has been a concerted effort to paint out of history the behaviour of the fans.

Edited December 26, 2012 by vix2000

[LeMaquis]

Not being a football supporter or having any real knowledge of the ground in question other than what I have heard on the news I only have my own experiences on the day.

 

I have travelled on penistone road many times when there has been a match. On the fateful day I had a job interview, and to get to it I had to travel along penistone road. My partner was driving and there were very large gangs/crowds whatever you want to call them of extremely drunk blokes swaying onto the road in front of the cars, we had to swerve quite a few times to miss them. I had never seen anything like it, and said to my partner what the hells going on here? and he told me it was the fa cup semi final and these were liverpool supporters. We thought nothing more of it until we tried to get home and all the roads were closed and we had to go all round Sheffield to get home. We then found out what had happened.

 

I had a friend who was nurse and I was supposed to be meeting her but she contacted me and said that she had gone to help at the hospital as they had requested anyone available to go in. She phoned me later and said that the ambulance men had told her that the fans were spitting on them and throwing coins and things at them as they were doing their job.

 

Now I am aware that none of this would change anything regarding the deaths, and my heart goes out to the families as losing a loved one is the worse thing I can imagine. I am behind anything that brings anyone responsible for changing the content of the statements to task, and they should take full responsibility for their actions BUT I do feel that there has been a concerted effort to paint out of history the behaviour of the fans.

 

What I do object to is the sweeping assumptions the people on here make about Fulwood residents, obviously from people who know sweet F A about the people or the area.

 

On an earlier post you complain about general assumptions about Fulwood residents but don't mind throwing some around about Liverpool residents despite the fact that you know sweet F A about Hillsborough, as you admit.

 

The truest bit of your post is where you say at the start you have no knowledge of the ground. The disaster took place on the side of the ground furthest from Penistone Road. The turnstiles on Penistone Road were for Notts Forest fans as they had the Kop that day. Therefore it's more than likely that the fans you saw were Forest fans. They also play in red.

 

It's also noticeable that the evidence you quote is what you were told, not what you saw yourself. They were Liverpool fans on Penistone Road, someone said that someone had said, etc. That's not evidence, that's hearsay. There were a lot of lies spread by the police and media in the immediate aftermath of the disaster which have been shown to be lies. Sadly ignorant people like you still believe them.

[real ale]

On an earlier post you complain about general assumptions about Fulwood residents but don't mind throwing some around about Liverpool residents despite the fact that you know sweet F A about Hillsborough, as you admit.

 

The truest bit of your post is where you say at the start you have no knowledge of the ground. The disaster took place on the side of the ground furthest from Penistone Road. The turnstiles on Penistone Road were for Notts Forest fans as they had the Kop that day. Therefore it's more than likely that the fans you saw were Forest fans. They also play in red.

 

It's also noticeable that the evidence you quote is what you were told, not what you saw yourself. They were Liverpool fans on Penistone Road, someone said that someone had said, etc. That's not evidence, that's hearsay. There were a lot of lies spread by the police and media in the immediate aftermath of the disaster which have been shown to be lies. Sadly ignorant people like you still believe them.

Le Maquis

I notice that you made no response to my post on the other thread relating to this matter. Do you have anything to say on my post ?

Edited December 26, 2012 by real ale
Missed out who the post was meant for

[rossyrooney]

The Editor of the Star has stated on Radio Sheffield this morning that he and his associates had doubts about the information they were being given but thought it from such a reliable source that they didn't investigate as much as they should have.

 

I thought that that was why they paid their staff,to get to the truth of things,not to report verbatim.

[Bosch]

I'm not sure why you seem to wish to 'discredit' Ms Martin, but there is no doubt that her evidence has helped to ensure that cases are re-investigated, and for me, that in itself, can only be a good thing.

 

I don't wish to try to discredit anyone. I would simply appeal for a degree of balance to be applied. We have had various 'truths' since 1989. The Taylor Report, the Coroners Inquest, the Judicial Scrutiny by Stuart Smith, a failed private prosecution in the Civil Court and I believe similiar with European Courts.

 

The Hillsborough Independent Panel has now produced another 'truth'. There is no secret that the primary author of the HIP is Professor Phil Scraton (the same academic who published his own book over a decade prior to the HIP - Hillsborough the Truth in 1999). He has worked tirelessly in close conjunction with the families behalf for many years.

 

There are very important issues which have been raised through the Panel's work. I don't for one moment suggest that there is anything untoward in the Panels (or Professor Scraton's) work but the term 'independent' is a little deceiving.

 

At present The HIP Report represents 'a truth' not 'the truth'. Appropriate, lawful and objective scrutiny will now follow (not trial by headline and media soundbite). Until then, in the interests of balance, we should all retain the right to question any evidence that is held up as key.

[Mr Bloom]

Can we never let go of this subject ... even a charity single coming out at Christmas now, hope that signals an end to it!

 

Such human compassion, sedith, brings a tear to my eye.

 

---------- Post added 26-12-2012 at 19:37 ----------

 

I don't wish to try to discredit anyone. I would simply appeal for a degree of balance to be applied. We have had various 'truths' since 1989. The Taylor Report, the Coroners Inquest, the Judicial Scrutiny by Stuart Smith, a failed private prosecution in the Civil Court and I believe similiar with European Courts.

 

The Hillsborough Independent Panel has now produced another 'truth'. There is no secret that the primary author of the HIP is Professor Phil Scraton (the same academic who published his own book over a decade prior to the HIP - Hillsborough the Truth in 1999). He has worked tirelessly in close conjunction with the families behalf for many years.

 

There are very important issues which have been raised through the Panel's work. I don't for one moment suggest that there is anything untoward in the Panels (or Professor Scraton's) work but the term 'independent' is a little deceiving.

 

At present The HIP Report represents 'a truth' not 'the truth'. Appropriate, lawful and objective scrutiny will now follow (not trial by headline and media soundbite). Until then, in the interests of balance, we should all retain the right to question any evidence that is held up as key.

 

I don't recall these 'appeals for a degree of balance to be applied' when the 'trial by headline and media soundbite' was being orchestrated by Middup and his colleagues.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Mr Bloom

[john2195]

On an earlier post you complain about general assumptions about Fulwood residents but don't mind throwing some around about Liverpool residents despite the fact that you know sweet F A about Hillsborough, as you admit.

 

The truest bit of your post is where you say at the start you have no knowledge of the ground. The disaster took place on the side of the ground furthest from Penistone Road. The turnstiles on Penistone Road were for Notts Forest fans as they had the Kop that day. Therefore it's more than likely that the fans you saw were Forest fans. They also play in red.

 

It's also noticeable that the evidence you quote is what you were told, not what you saw yourself. They were Liverpool fans on Penistone Road, someone said that someone had said, etc. That's not evidence, that's hearsay. There were a lot of lies spread by the police and media in the immediate aftermath of the disaster which have been shown to be lies. Sadly ignorant people like you still believe them.

 

So you cannot walk up riverside road and then catch bar lane to get to leppings lane entrance. How else would Liverpool fans get to the turnstiles ( who already know the ground and stadium from previous visits ) from walking on penistone road.

 

Do people seriously think that fans come to a different city and then go straight to the stadium, a lot come early to make sure they are here in time and maybe have a couple of drinks. After all it was a cup tie which are usually a celebration?

[vix2000]

On an earlier post you complain about general assumptions about Fulwood residents but don't mind throwing some around about Liverpool residents despite the fact that you know sweet F A about Hillsborough, as you admit.

 

The truest bit of your post is where you say at the start you have no knowledge of the ground. The disaster took place on the side of the ground furthest from Penistone Road. The turnstiles on Penistone Road were for Notts Forest fans as they had the Kop that day. Therefore it's more than likely that the fans you saw were Forest fans. They also play in red.

 

It's also noticeable that the evidence you quote is what you were told, not what you saw yourself. They were Liverpool fans on Penistone Road, someone said that someone had said, etc. That's not evidence, that's hearsay. There were a lot of lies spread by the police and media in the immediate aftermath of the disaster which have been shown to be lies. Sadly ignorant people like you still believe them.

 

Can you not read, I myself was on penistone road, am I not allowed to voice my opinion in light of what I actually saw? My post was not aggressive in any way, unlike yours, and what relevance my previous post has I do not know, and how sad you have nothing better to do than to immediately search my posting to make your arrogant attack.

[LeMaquis]

Le Maquis

I notice that you made no response to my post on the other thread relating to this matter. Do you have anything to say on my post ?

 

That other thread is closed and so I can't respond. However you seem to be saying that the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster. The original Taylor Report agreed but decided that the Liverpool fans' contribution was secondary i.e. that the main cause was a failure of policing. I have quoted that in a post on one of these Hillsborough threads in the last week and I assume you'll be able to find it. I apologise if I unfairly include you in this but my feeling is that those people blaming Liverpool fans are mainly intent on deflecting blame away from where it really lies - the police. The new inquiry is going to open up all the lies the police, media, Irvine Patnick, et al spread in the immediare aftermath of the disaster. Some people are still spreading those lies today, over 20 years later, on here.

 

---------- Post added 26-12-2012 at 20:46 ----------

 

Can you not read, I myself was on penistone road, am I not allowed to voice my opinion in light of what I actually saw? My post was not aggressive in any way, unlike yours, and what relevance my previous post has I do not know, and how sad you have nothing better to do than to immediately search my posting to make your arrogant attack.

 

I know you said you were on Penistone Road. That's why I said turnstiles on Penistone Road are to the Kop where the Forest fans were. If I was aggressive it's because people like you have been lying for over 20 years to blame the Liverpool fans for what was, according to the Taylor Report, mainly a failure of policing.

 

---------- Post added 26-12-2012 at 20:50 ----------

 

So you cannot walk up riverside road and then catch bar lane to get to leppings lane entrance. How else would Liverpool fans get to the turnstiles ( who already know the ground and stadium from previous visits ) from walking on penistone road.

 

Do people seriously think that fans come to a different city and then go straight to the stadium, a lot come early to make sure they are here in time and maybe have a couple of drinks. After all it was a cup tie which are usually a celebration?

 

Most Liverpool fans would have come by car or coach. The easiest way would have been over the M62 and down towards Hillsborough from the north. They wouldn't need to come onto Penistone Road. They could go onto Leppings Lane from the roundabout at the bottom of Halifax Road or down from Stocksbridge through Oughtibridge. I'm sure some will have come via Penistone Road but there must have been far more Forest fans there as they had the Kop. The disaster was on the opposite side of the ground anyway.