Hillsborough document release

[Gazza58]

Drunkenness maybe played a part,ticketless fans maybe played a part,so did arriving late possibly play a part,there were many factors to the tragedy that day,just wish the liverpool fans would say,yes we were responsible in some way.Surely its not all down to the police,swfc,traffic problems,etc etc.

[Lockjaw]

None, but maybe that's because the other fans exhibited more self-control than the Liverpool ones and the police may have reacted better as other fans had not killed 39 people in Heysel in the recent past.

 

Oops.

 

.........

[Strix]

None, but maybe that's because the other fans exhibited more self-control than the Liverpool ones and the police may have reacted better as other fans had not killed 39 people in Heysel in the recent past.

you didn't read my post

A crush had already taken place at Hillsborough

[frededwards]

I never said it was all of the Liverpool fans.

 

---------- Post added 27-02-2013 at 14:50 ----------

 

Drunkenness maybe played a part,ticketless fans maybe played a part,so did arriving late possibly play a part,there were many factors to the tragedy that day,just wish the liverpool fans would say,yes we were responsible in some way.Surely its not all down to the police,swfc,traffic problems,etc etc.

 

That's my belief as well.

[mikem8634]

None, but maybe that's because the other fans exhibited more self-control than the Liverpool ones and the police may have reacted better as other fans had not killed 39 people in Heysel in the recent past.

 

You' re right, the HIP report is quite clear that the spectre of Heysel loomed large in the formulation of anti-Liverpool prejudice in the senior ranks of SYP on that day. The poor policing was largely informed by an obsession with crowd control to the detriment of crowd safety.

 

I'll try again - do you have any evidence to show that the fans significantly contributed to the disaster?

[Strix]

Drunkenness maybe played a part,ticketless fans maybe played a part,so did arriving late possibly play a part,there were many factors to the tragedy that day,just wish the liverpool fans would say,yes we were responsible in some way.Surely its not all down to the police,swfc,traffic problems,etc etc.

 

by your logic, every fan who turned up WITH a ticket, stone cold SOBER, and arrived half an hour EARLY also contributed to the problem. After all, if they hadn't been there, there would have been more room and presumably no crushing

 

I note no replies about the previous crush at an earlier match have been forthcoming

[Gazza58]

by your logic, every fan who turned up WITH a ticket, stone cold SOBER, and arrived half an hour EARLY also contributed to the problem. After all, if they hadn't been there, there would have been more room and presumably no crushing

 

I note no replies about the previous crush at an earlier match have been forthcoming

 

Christ knows how you worked that one out. Obviously i refer to the late,ticketless,drunken ones.

[Strix]

Christ knows how you worked that one out. Obviously i refer to the late,ticketless,drunken ones.

 

these drunk ticketless late Liverpool fans were also at the previous Hillsborough crush were they?

[Lockjaw]

I never said it was all of the Liverpool fans.

 

---------- Post added 27-02-2013 at 14:50 ----------

 

 

 

That's my belief as well.

 

Come on Fred.

 

We're still waiting for you to clarify why you think drunkenness was a major factor in the causes of the disaster but didn't cause disasters at any other matches...

[mikem8634]

Just a little bit of background evidence relating to the current discussion that I have posted before.

 

 

 

 

It has been already been established that ticketless fans were not present in significant numbers and did not contribute to the disaster -

 

Papers relating to the conspiracy theory around ticketless Liverpool Supporters put forward by South Yorkshire Police http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

“I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number of late-arriving ticketless supporters). I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan." The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 208.

 

 

 

I wouldn't doubt for a second that some Liverpool fans behaved like idiots. Every club has its contingent.

 

The Panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying... and that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-hillsborough-statement-in-full-8130555.html

 

 

This is why the gate was opened -

 

15 April 1989

The circumstances

1.77 Consistent with the Operational Order, many spectators arriving in Sheffield on trains and coaches were escorted by the police from their point of arrival to the stadium. As they approached the stadium there was no filtering of the crowd and the bottleneck at the concourse in front of the turnstiles became tightly packed. With walls, fences or gates to the sides and front of this small area, the only relief was to move backwards. Many more fans arrived, oblivious to the mounting crush at the front, and the situation in the vicinity of the turnstiles soon became critical.

 

1.78 As kick-off time approached, the crush worsened, and men, women, children and police officers struggled to breathe. Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account. They felt there had been no attempt to manage the crowd, no filtering and no queuing.

 

1.79 The Police Control Box, the centre of the policing operation at the stadium, was positioned inside the ground, elevated above the Leppings Lane terrace, giving a commanding view of the pens below. At 2.30pm the bank of CCTV monitors in the box showed the build-up of fans in Leppings Lane and at the turnstiles.

 

1.80 As the crush became critical, C/Supt Duckenfield faced a serious dilemma. The senior officer outside the ground, Superintendent Roger Marshall, radioed that unless the large exit gates were opened to relieve the crush there would be serious injuries, possibly deaths. Hesitating, C/Supt Duckenfield gave the command to open the gates.

 

 

 

 

Yes, they did climb the turnstyles - with the help of the police - Near Gate B Inspector John Bennett was on a turnstile roof assisting distressed fans over the wall and into the stadium to escape the crush outside. A number of these fans had lost shoes and clothing. Stewards also refused to open Gate B. Eventually a steward unlocked and opened the gate for approximately one minute. This relieved the crush.http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

 

 

Because some Liverpool fans behaved in a disgusting manner at Heysel and were rightly prosecuted for it. The only connection between Heysel and Hillsborough is that SYP prejudged the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough because of what had happened at Heysel.