Hillsborough document release

[Lockjaw]

Irrelevant. If the football fans had behaved like civilised human beings, the day would have passed without injury.

 

You never see anything approaching this sort of behaviour at a rugby match.

 

Is it just me or is anyone else reminded of

?

[mikem8634]

Irrelevant. If the football fans had behaved like civilised human beings, the day would have passed without injury.

 

You never see anything approaching this sort of behaviour at a rugby match.

 

Can you please present the following -

 

a) evidence of fans not behaving like civilised human beings?

 

b) evidence that the day would have passed without injury without such behaviour?

 

 

Please allow me to, once again, draw your attention to this -

 

The Panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying... and that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...l-8130555.html

 

... and here for much more of the same http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9286357&postcount=1006

Edited February 28, 2013 by mikem8634

[Hots on]

Liverpool fans on the day "mobbed" the ground, a tactic whereby they all turn up at once quite late and just completely overwhelm the turnstilse and the staff manning them so that lots just get in without a ticket.

 

There is even footage of fans climbing IN not OUT.

[Strix]

Liverpool fans on the day "mobbed" the ground, a tactic whereby they all turn up at once quite late and just completely overwhelm the turnstilse and the staff manning them so that lots just get in without a ticket.

 

There is even footage of fans climbing IN not OUT.

did you watch the video of that posted in this thread in October?

 

The turnstyles were out of action and jamming. Only 1/4 to 1/3 of them were working. By 2.30 there was already a problem outside the ground. Police held 400 fans at wadsley bridge station. They arrived en masse. The fans climbing in HAD TICKETS - watch them in the video. They're doing nothing to avoid police or stewards. They were escaping being crushed OUTSIDE the ground

 

Have a read back through this thread. There's some interesting videos. You can make your own mind up

Edited February 28, 2013 by Strix

[mikem8634]

Liverpool fans on the day "mobbed" the ground, a tactic whereby they all turn up at once quite late and just completely overwhelm the turnstilse and the staff manning them so that lots just get in without a ticket.

 

See my previous post for the evidence that refutes this point. If you have evidence of your own that can establish your point then please provide it.

 

There is even footage of fans climbing IN not OUT.

 

Yes you are correct there is indeed footage of fans climbing in.

 

The photos show, correct me if I'm wrong, what appears to be fans climbing over a wall to get access into the ground. The times on the photographs (14.54, 14.55, 14.57) correspond to the following evidence taken from pg. 96 of the Hillsborough Independent Report and based on the West Midlands Police interview with Superintendent Murray for report to the DPP, 25 June 1990 and the recollection of PC Brown, 19 April 1989 -

 

 

Consequences of opening the gates

PC Smith recalled looking through a glass window in Gate A at approximately 2.50pm and noticing numerous fans crushed and in great distress. Sergeant Wright claimed that he requested Club stewards to open the gate to relieve the pressure but the stewards refused.

 

Near Gate B Inspector John Bennett was on a turnstile roof assisting distressed fans over the wall and into the stadium to escape the crush outside. A number of these fans had lost shoes and clothing. Stewards also refused to open Gate B. Eventually a steward unlocked and opened the gate for approximately one minute. This relieved the crush.

 

So, what appears to be 'unruly fans' actually is a group of fans escaping possible injury and death with the assistance of the police.

 

My point, as ever, is if you (as in everyone) have a doubt or a question you might find what you need by reading the report -http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

Edited February 28, 2013 by mikem8634

[Lockjaw]

See my previous post for the evidence that refutes this point. If you have evidence of your own that can establish your point then please provide it.

 

 

 

Yes you are correct there is indeed footage of fans climbing in.

 

The photos show, correct me if I'm wrong, what appears to be fans climbing over a wall to get access into the ground. The times on the photographs (14.54, 14.55, 14.57) correspond to the following evidence taken from pg. 96 of the Hillsborough Independent Report and based on the West Midlands Police interview with Superintendent Murray for report to the DPP, 25 June 1990 and the recollection of PC Brown, 19 April 1989 -

 

 

Consequences of opening the gates

PC Smith recalled looking through a glass window in Gate A at approximately 2.50pm and noticing numerous fans crushed and in great distress. Sergeant Wright claimed that he requested Club stewards to open the gate to relieve the pressure but the stewards refused.

 

Near Gate B Inspector John Bennett was on a turnstile roof assisting distressed fans over the wall and into the stadium to escape the crush outside. A number of these fans had lost shoes and clothing. Stewards also refused to open Gate B. Eventually a steward unlocked and opened the gate for approximately one minute. This relieved the crush.

 

So, what appears to be 'unruly fans' actually is a group of fans escaping possible injury and death with the assistance of the police.

 

My point, as ever, is if you (as in everyone) have a doubt or a question you might find what you need by reading the report -http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

 

[silence]

 

... then ...

 

"these go up to 11"

[Michael_W]

At what point do people become excused for their actions ?

I remember as youngster, the school I attended used to put a teacher at the school bus stop to help control the kids getting on the bus after school, on one particular occasion a female teacher ended up under the bus as the kids surged to get on it, guess who got blamed ?

Anyone who remembers going to Hillsborough in the 70s will remember the Special buses on Parkside Rd after the match and the chaos and the scramble to get on them, within the grounds themselves, and at Liverpools Anfield Rd end particularly, fans would cram the terraces behind the goals, surging and swaying often uncontrollably, that was football for you 20, 30, 40 years ago.

So on that fateful day in 1989 there was a large scale scramble to get in the ground at the Leppings Lane End of the ground.

The policing outside the ground may have failed to control the arriving fans, the turnstiles may have been inadequate to handle the numbers arriving prior to kick off, but no one could have predicted the tragedy that unfolded in a very short time either side of the 3pm kick off.

Let's not forget, FA Cup Semi Finals are big games, they attract big crowds, some queueing at turnstiles is inevitable regardless of turnstile numbers, you can not pre-determine how many fans turn up at any one time, not now and not then. People are impatient, they don't like to queue, they hate it even more so when there is no queue and just a mass of people trying to enter a stadium for a kick off that is minutes away.

Terraces at football grounds up and down the country were frequently packed, segregating barriers were a common feature of terraces due to crowd disorder within the stadiums in the late 60's and through the 70's and 80's. Policing of football matches generally concentrated on rival fan segregation ahead of any crowd safety concerns.

The stories have been told, fingers have been pointed, everyone apart from those poor people who died has now had their say, a justice campaign fought for over 20 years, there was an Inquiry and now a report ...... not once have I heard a fan own up to being an impatient git who contributed to the mayhem outside !

[Strix]

Watch the video Michael, and come back and tell us which fans you saw pushing to get in

 

If you watch, you'll see a street full of fans just walking to the ground. There is no rushing. It's like watching pouring treacle. Nothing happens... just people walking, then slowing down as they arrive at the ground. It's just sheer numbers, not being processed through the gates

 

Watch the video. It's disturbing watching so many people doing nothing unusual or out of the ordinary, just more and more of them arriving in the same place, and a police horse getting into a flap in the middle of it, and a copper shouting for people to move back, but they can't move back because there's already somebody behind them, and more arriving

 

After this event, before computers were commonplace, much was done to monitor and computer model crowd movement. Basically it's like pouring water. The atoms in poured water are part of a flow, and that is how a crowd moves. An individual hemmed in by so many others has no choice but to be carried along with the mass. The studies drastically altered stadium design, particularly approach barriers

 

Please watch the video. It leaves the viewer with a horrible feeling of helplessness

[dafodil]

Watch the video Michael, and come back and tell us which fans you saw pushing to get in

 

If you watch, you'll see a street full of fans just walking to the ground. There is no rushing. It's like watching pouring treacle. Nothing happens... just people walking, then slowing down as they arrive at the ground. It's just sheer numbers, not being processed through the gates

 

Watch the video. It's disturbing watching so many people doing nothing unusual or out of the ordinary, just more and more of them arriving in the same place, and a police horse getting into a flap in the middle of it, and a copper shouting for people to move back, but they can't move back because there's already somebody behind them, and more arriving

 

After this event, before computers were commonplace, much was done to monitor and computer model crowd movement. Basically it's like pouring water. The atoms in poured water are part of a flow, and that is how a crowd moves. An individual hemmed in by so many others has no choice but to be carried along with the mass. The studies drastically altered stadium design, particularly approach barriers

 

Please watch the video. It leaves the viewer with a horrible feeling of helplessness

When you pour water into a sink then there is a plug hole to let it out .

At football grounds at that time the plug

holes were firmly left in.

The fences were to blame as much as any human error on the day.

[Michael_W]

Watch the video Michael, and come back and tell us which fans you saw pushing to get in

 

If you watch, you'll see a street full of fans just walking to the ground. There is no rushing. It's like watching pouring treacle. Nothing happens... just people walking, then slowing down as they arrive at the ground. It's just sheer numbers, not being processed through the gates

 

Watch the video. It's disturbing watching so many people doing nothing unusual or out of the ordinary, just more and more of them arriving in the same place, and a police horse getting into a flap in the middle of it, and a copper shouting for people to move back, but they can't move back because there's already somebody behind them, and more arriving

 

After this event, before computers were commonplace, much was done to monitor and computer model crowd movement. Basically it's like pouring water. The atoms in poured water are part of a flow, and that is how a crowd moves. An individual hemmed in by so many others has no choice but to be carried along with the mass. The studies drastically altered stadium design, particularly approach barriers

 

Please watch the video. It leaves the viewer with a horrible feeling of helplessness

 

I have seen it strix, and like I have said before to those who feel justified in the finger pointing, and the bandwagon jumping, there was a combination of factors, I have been in crowds myself at football matches, where similar situations outside the turnstiles have occurred, and as human beings we do have a responsibilty for our actions, including queueing in an orderly fashion .... this rarely happened outside football stadia back then.

I have said before hindsight is a wonderful thing, your post backs up that view !